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Sly 
Joined: 24 Dec 1999
Location: Australia
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| K wrote: | | So you're saying the whole culture (club and supporters) is stuffing up the club. |
In every sporting code, there are clubs/players who succeed, and those who fail.
Why? What differentiates them?
Obviously, talent plays a part. But what about when you get opponents/teams evenly matched?
What drives one to succeed over the other?
The club is the sum of its history. Why did it go from a 11-9 grand final record to a 4-18-2 record?
I've always maintained that Nathan Buckley has seen the hype that surrounds the club as a deterrent. In the recent documentary, he said that the club had been an 'arrogant' club and a 'chest-beating club'.
We celebrate our existence and have used our past achievements to laud our dominance, but that history is no longer relevant.
Carlton and Essendon have passed us in flags.
Richmond's passed us in members.
Hawthorn's the most-successful club in the modern era.
We still cling to our four-peat. Well done to The Machine. But that's not helping us in the here and now.
We need to recognise that we're a battling club. Off-field, we might be this bastion of material accomplishment, but ultimately it comes down to what happens on the field.
Both Spook and I have always felt that given the club is celebrated simply for existing, does that (subconsciously) undermine them? It doesn't have to be a lot, or to every player.
But enough. |
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Sly
Joined: 24 Dec 1999
Location: Australia
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| Thanks, everybody! |
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PyreneesPie 
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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^ ^^^^ Excellent post Sly.
I found your comparison between the mind-sets of Maxy and Jack Crisp in their respective GF's to be very insightful and a great example of what you said:
| Quote: | | Both Spook and I have always felt that given the club is celebrated simply for existing, does that (subconsciously) undermine them? It doesn't have to be a lot, or to every player. |
I reckon priming/bending the mind-set/psychology of the team and its players is one of the last great frontiers in our sport, (as most of the other influential factors get equalized in one way or another).
Also fascinated by your description of how the Hawks were hell bent on preventing poor old Fev get his 100!!!  |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Sly wrote: | ...
We still cling to our four-peat. Well done to The Machine. But that's not helping us in the here and now.
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Living in the distant past is dangerous but at least I can understand it. What I can't understand is when Baum glorifies failure and says "failure is in our DNA" and many Nicksters praise him for it. 
And when Nicksters say this was a "very good year", making the PF was a great "success", etc., after the coach himself said it was a "waste".
And much more besides... |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| Sly wrote: | | Carlton and Essendon have passed us in flags. Richmond's passed us in members. Hawthorn's the most-successful club in the modern era. We still cling to our four-peat |
It's interesting that you mention Carlton as being more successful than us, since they are the poster-boys for failure in the modern era. Once the AFL came down on brown paper bags they couldn't win anything and their 1995 one came with a big asterix.
Hawthorn's 1980s success depended on a Tasmanian bank account according to none other than Don Scott, and Essendon were similarly rorting the cap for most of the 1990s including their 1993 flag.
Is this what we're supposed to admire?
We 'cling' to our four-peat in part because nobody has ever been able to match it and probably never will.
Collingwood would get less stick, both internally and externally, if we hadn't played in as many GFs. If our record was 15-14 I reckon there wouldn't be anywhere near as many threads like this. We're overachievers, not underachievers IMO.
Do you realise St. Kilda are 1-7 and Swans are 5-12 in GFs? Both worse than us in terms of winning %. More about Sydney below. North are also not far off at 4-6.
Flags/GFs since 1985 (introduction of salary cap):
Essendon 2/4
Carlton 2/5
Collingwood 2/6
Hawthorn 5/ 7
Richmond 2/2
Geelong 3/8
Sydney 2/6
North 2/3
WCE 4/7
Brisbane 3/4
Adelaide 2/3
Port 1/2
Based on that, who are the teams we should be emulating? Hawthorn, Geelong, West Coast & Sydney for mine. Why? Because they're constantly in the finals, which gives them a shot at making the GF, which gives them a shot at the flag.
While we haven't had the finals success of those 4 teams, we would be the next best I'll wager. We have the same GF record as Sydney and are only 1 flag behind Geelong. Carlton and Essendon shouldn't even be mentioned as benchmarks of any kind.
Meanwhile current golden boys Richmond endured 37? years in the wilderness. Lions fans suffered since 1944 for their golden era three-peat and only just climbed back into the spotlight now.
Do you hear supporters of these other clubs bemoaning their lack of success and talking about their culture, how hard their training track is or the words to their club song? I don't.
Hawthorn are the outliers, the freaks, of the modern era (like we were in the 20s). It's getting harder to win flags... the cap, draft, expansion teams all dictate that it's harder to win a flag now than it was in the VFL days. But somehow they managed to stay competitive and deliver while 'losing' their marquee player, thanks to some canny trading.
Speaking of trading - I reckon we're 1-2 good INs from our next flag. Like Ball & Jolly. Beams could have been 1 but the gamble didn't pay off. That's life. Or, a golden run with injury (ha!) like Richmond had. A freak year where everything goes right for no particular reason (that's called luck).
Every supporter would like to see Collingwood win more GFs but it seems to me it's the ones who lived through the 1959-1989 'Colliwobbles' drought that are the most vocal about our 'failures'.
Be thankful you're not St. Kilda or Melbourne supporters.
PS I couldn't give a rats how many members Richmond have and frankly if you do, you've been sucked in by the AFL/RFC publicity. There's a reason they don't separate their membership revenue from their merchandise sales in their annual report and that's because they don't want it to be obvious how many limited-access and Auskick memberships they sell. They also sought to increase membership by moving their training ground first to Craigieburn and the Cardinia - that's what a struggling club does, it's not something to be used as a blueprint by strong clubs. There's nothing wrong with Collingwood's membership numbers, we're still the biggest drawing club in the league on match day
_________________
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/sav-sinks-the-dockers/ |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Sly wrote: | ...
Check out Part 1 on YouTube now!
... |
For those who want to skip to select bits:
The GF Curse (yeah, they don't call it that) 15:29
Culture 31:10
And...
| Sly wrote: | | We explore culture more in Part 2. |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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Sly
Joined: 24 Dec 1999
Location: Australia
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| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | | Carlton and Essendon have passed us in flags. Richmond's passed us in members. Hawthorn's the most-successful club in the modern era. We still cling to our four-peat |
It's interesting that you mention Carlton as being more successful than us, since they are the poster-boys for failure in the modern era. Once the AFL came down on brown paper bags they couldn't win anything and their 1995 one came with a big asterix.
Hawthorn's 1980s success depended on a Tasmanian bank account according to none other than Don Scott, and Essendon were similarly rorting the cap for most of the 1990s including their 1993 flag.
Is this what we're supposed to admire? |
No, what we're supposed to admire is when they get in grand finals they win them. I would've thought that was obvious.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | | We 'cling' to our four-peat in part because nobody has ever been able to match it and probably never will. |
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So you cling to history rather create a future.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | | Collingwood would get less stick, both internally and externally, if we hadn't played in as many GFs. If our record was 15-14 I reckon there wouldn't be anywhere near as many threads like this. We're overachievers, not underachievers IMO. |
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No offense, but that's a ridiculous counter. We're dealing with what is.
This would be like me saying, "If we were sitting on 40 flags and just the 2 grand final losses, there wouldn't be threads like this." Yeah, of course. But are they the facts? No.
I'm dealing with reality. You've had to create a fiction to counter.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: |
Do you realise St. Kilda are 1-7 and Swans are 5-12 in GFs? |
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Yes, I know this. And as I've said constantly, why do people have to compare us to lesser achievers so we can feel better than ourselves?
This would like Bernard Tomic saying he's a better tennis player than you, so don't go hard on him because he's okay by that standard!
Surely you're aspiring to be up there with the best, rather than build yourself by comparing yourself to lesser lights.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | Based on that, who are the teams we should be emulating? Hawthorn, Geelong, West Coast & Sydney for mine. Why? Because they're constantly in the finals, which gives them a shot at making the GF, which gives them a shot at the flag.
While we haven't had the finals success of those 4 teams, we would be the next best I'll wager. We have the same GF record as Sydney and are only 1 flag behind Geelong. Carlton and Essendon shouldn't even be mentioned as benchmarks of any kind. |
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So we're fifth best on your list. WOW! FIFTH BEST! You've really set that bar high. Good on you! With that attitude, I can see why we're such a successful club. Because we aspire to be fifth!
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | Meanwhile current golden boys Richmond endured 37? years in the wilderness. Lions fans suffered since 1944 for their golden era three-peat and only just climbed back into the spotlight now.
Do you hear supporters of these other clubs bemoaning their lack of success and talking about their culture, how hard their training track is or the words to their club song? I don't. |
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I don't hear any Lions fans at all.
Yes, I heard Richmond supporters bemoaning their lack of success and inept administration until they got it right.
Our training track is hard. That's a reality. Why dispute it? Club legend Dane Swan tweeted about it but, yeah, I'll go with what you say because you must know better than the guy who trained on it for ten years.
Again, you're creating fictions to counter. Brisbane or Richmond don't bemoan their hard training surface because they don't have a hard training surface.
For eight years we've ranked in the top eight clubs for injuries. It is madness to not investigate or rectify the situation and just accept it as it is, or put it down to 'luck'.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | | Hawthorn are the outliers, the freaks, of the modern era (like we were in the 20s). It's getting harder to win flags... the cap, draft, expansion teams all dictate that it's harder to win a flag now than it was in the VFL days. But somehow they managed to stay competitive and deliver while 'losing' their marquee player, thanks to some canny trading. |
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There's a reason Hawthorn win. They have a ruthless streak. When they get into grand finals, I expect them to win. That's the psychology of the club.
I have some insider knowledge to how Hawthorn have operated in terms of their approach to on-field strategy and preparation. It is much more professional than ours.
I think they messed up by topping up to try stay relevant, but I'll be curious how they go next year.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | | Speaking of trading - I reckon we're 1-2 good INs from our next flag. Like Ball & Jolly. Beams could have been 1 but the gamble didn't pay off. That's life. Or, a golden run with injury (ha!) like Richmond had. A freak year where everything goes right for no particular reason (that's called luck). |
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Some of it is luck. Some of it is mitigating factors. When we lost to Hawthorn, was that luck? Or because we didn't man-up Sicily? When we lose players repeatedly to soft-tissue injuries, is that luck? Or is there a contributing factor?
If you truly believe it's just luck, then let's just sit around and wait until the Collingwood Pixies arrive and sprinkle magical pixie dust on the club and make it all better.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | Every supporter would like to see Collingwood win more GFs but it seems to me it's the ones who lived through the 1959-1989 'Colliwobbles' drought that are the most vocal about our 'failures'.
Be thankful you're not St. Kilda or Melbourne supporters. |
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Again, comparing ourselves to lesser lights to feel better about our club.
I really don't care what the shit clubs are doing. If that's who you feel you need to compare us to make yourself feel better about us, it's little surprise you don't aspire to anything great.
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | Sly wrote: | | PS I couldn't give a rats how many members Richmond have and frankly if you do, you've been sucked in by the AFL/RFC publicity. There's a reason they don't separate their membership revenue from their merchandise sales in their annual report and that's because they don't want it to be obvious how many limited-access and Auskick memberships they sell. They also sought to increase membership by moving their training ground first to Craigieburn and the Cardinia - that's what a struggling club does, it's not something to be used as a blueprint by strong clubs. There's nothing wrong with Collingwood's membership numbers, we're still the biggest drawing club in the league on match day |
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No, actually, I haven't been sucked in. That's your misinterpretation.
Members are a reflection of success.
It's a pretty simple equation. Do well, people will come.
But the point is WE used to use that as a measure of stature, so maybe instead of having a shot at me, you should have a shot at the Collingwood PR who espoused it for years. |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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^Your entire response is pretty much dedicated to rebutting every point I made, including willfully misrepresenting my statements on multiple points. You barely acknowledged anything I raised and seem more interested in stupid putdowns. Anyway, against my better judgement here is my response
| Sly wrote: | | What we're supposed to admire is when they get in grand finals they win them. I would've thought that was obvious |
No shit. So winning by any means necessary, including salary cap cheating? Because that was my question
| Sly wrote: | | So you cling to history rather [than] create a future |
No, I acknowledge and celebrate our history. You can do that and still look to the future, the two aren't mutually exclusive. You said the club doesn't stand for anything these days, our history is part of what we stand for
| Sly wrote: | | No offense, but that's a ridiculous counter. We're dealing with what is. |
You shouldn't take my every word as a counter to what you said, I'm commenting on the psychology of supporters and what they perceive as success or failure. In your video you said on average we should be at least 50/50 and have 20-odd flags, is that dealing with what is?
That's a rhetorical question btw
| Sly wrote: | | as I've said constantly, why do people have to compare us to lesser achievers so we can feel better than ourselves? |
I compared us to a lot of teams, how else are we going to know where we stand and what NOT to do as well as what TO do.
My point is we're near the top - where we all aspire to be - but not there. We're not a basketcase, we're close and that should mean tweaking not throwing the baby out with the bathwater
| Sly wrote: | | So we're fifth best on your list. WOW! FIFTH BEST! You've really set that bar high. Good on you! With that attitude, I can see why we're such a successful club. Because we aspire to be fifth! |
WOW! What an intelligent reply that doesn't totally misrepresent what I actually said. Good on you! With that attitude, I don't feel like I'm totally wasting my time responding to you
| Sly wrote: | | Yes, I heard Richmond supporters bemoaning their lack of success and inept administration until they got it right |
And what did we used to say about Richmond? "They eat their own". We made memes about them microwaving their memberships and dumping chook shit. Do you think 3 decades of that behaviour is what made them successful today, or did it contribute to holding them back?
| Sly wrote: | | Our training track is hard. That's a reality. Why dispute it? Club legend Dane Swan tweeted about it but, yeah, I'll go with what you say because you must know better than the guy who trained on it for ten years |
Once again, not what I said but anyway...
Why dispute it indeed. Because the club IS disputing it. Eddie is disputing it. Geoff is disputing it. I think Scott is on record as saying that it softened after a hot, dry summer but hey I'll go with what you say because you must know better than the players, coaches and staff because you have your own youtube show
Ok so it's hard. I'll ask you the same questions I posed here the other day: If it's so bleeding obvious that the hard track has been causing injuries for 8 years and is stopping us winning flags, Why isn't it being investigated? Or has it been? Why are the coaches, board, players and everyone involved in the club engaged in a giant cover-up to deliberately ruin their chances of success and shout down a plucky group of supporters and ex-players who're trying to uncover the conspiracy? And what exactly needs to be done to rectify the hardness problem?
| Sly wrote: | | If you truly believe it's just luck, then let's just sit around and wait until the Collingwood Pixies arrive and sprinkle magical pixie dust on the club and make it all better |
Once again you have accurately summarised exactly what I said without any misinterpretations or exaggerations 
My comment about luck was regarding Richmond's dream run with injuries. Like winning the flag every year, not a realistic expectation to have basically zero injuries to key players for a whole season
But yeah, let's just wait for the Collingwood Pixies
| Sly wrote: | | I really don't care what the shit clubs are doing. If that's who you feel you need to compare us to make yourself feel better about us, it's little surprise you don't aspire to anything great |
Yet Carlton was the first team you mentioned in your reply...
I compared us to Hawthorn, WCE, Brisbane, Swans, Carlton, Essendon, Port, Richmond, Geelong & Adelaide but just ignore that because otherwise you wouldn't be able to make yet another childish putdown based on something I didn't actually say
| Sly wrote: | | WE used to use that [membership] as a measure of stature, so maybe instead of having a shot at me, you should have a shot at the Collingwood PR who espoused it for years. |
Yes I can see you get defensive when you think people are 'having a shot' at you, so no wonder you would prefer to deflect perceived criticisms of yourself onto nameless people who aren't able to respond
For years memberships were season ticket holders and therefore like-for-like. Now you have 5, 3, 1 game, 0 game, Auskicks etc. So not like for like. And the AFL is constantly shifting the goalposts as to which memberships are counted, to meet the total membership targets that they set for themselves so they can give themselves a pat on the back and a payrise.
That's why I don't care how many members Richmond has - we're still #1 for BUMS ON SEATS despite them having 17k more members than us. That's why I said you got sucked in by the headline and your response didn't do anything to change my perception of that.
By the way, the job of the PR is to make positive headlines. The job of the president is to represent the club's interests. The job of supporters is to support the club, financially or otherwise. The job of the players and coaches is to win games including GFs. So everyone has their distinct role to play in success. I'm mentioning this because you seemed a bit confused about who is responsible for what in your chat
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Leaving all that BS aside, what I want to ask you is what should we DO to become number 1 again? Because I didn't hear any clearly defined solution in your circular, at times contradictory, hour-long rant.
So our club culture sucks, our history should be left in the past, we don't stand for anything, the psychology of the fans is all wrong, we accept and even reward failure, the players don't 'want it enough' (as if the opposition doesn't have any input), we all plan to fail and make excuses, we have too many injuries because the track is too hard but the club just denies it and refuses to act...
What's your plan to change all of that, how are you going to get it implemented and what can we as supporters do to make it happen? Otherwise it's just noise
_________________
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/sav-sinks-the-dockers/ |
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Sly
Joined: 24 Dec 1999
Location: Australia
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I'm not a know-it-all. I know nothing. I can only go on what I see. I can only question why things occur. You want to rationalise them.
I'm not going to bother rebutting all your rebuttals, but just want to look at two core arguments as exemplars of our different opinions.
Since 1937, our grand final record has been 4 flags, 18 losses, 2 draws.
Those losses -- which occur regularly through generations -- suggest there is something wrong with the psychology of the football club come grand final day.
Through all sports, there are individuals and teams who thrive in the pressure of finals, and others who wilt. Statistically, our record shows we wilt. That's a fact. It's not me making stuff up. Your response?
| Quote: | | Collingwood would get less stick, both internally and externally, if we hadn't played in as many GFs. If our record was 15-14 I reckon there wouldn't be anywhere near as many threads like this. |
So if the problem didn't exist people wouldn't be talking about it? How is that a logical counter?
That's not dealing with the issue. That's ignoring it, and saying everything's okay while the elephant in the room continues to shit in the corner.
I would much rather address the reality, and investigate means of polarising that psychology (something I've repeatedly given Buckley credit for attempting throughout his entire tenure). I would rather the team had the confidence and ruthlessness of a Hawthorn when they marched out there, rather than the trepidation and diffidence of a St Kilda.
As a club we need to change, because historically we're just doing the same stuff over and over. Again, that's not me making stuff up. The statistics -- the very real and existing statistics -- back that up.
We've been in the top injury lists for the last eight seasons. One or two years is bad luck. But eight? If the club isn't investigating it -- and we're not privy to what's happening internally -- I'd be very disappointed.
If you want to believe everything is great and we're just coasting along, that's your prerogative. We can do better.
You're welcome to disagree, mate. Your welcome to your opinions.
I just totally disagree with them. |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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Before saying you totally disagree with my opinions you could try a bit harder to understand what they actually are because it's not this:
| Sly wrote: | | If you want to believe everything is great and we're just coasting along, that's your prerogative |
I have never said this. What I did say was:
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | who are the teams we should be emulating? Hawthorn, Geelong, West Coast & Sydney for mine... Every supporter would like to see Collingwood win more GFs |
| Sly wrote: | | I can only question why things occur. You want to rationalise them. I'm not going to bother rebutting all your rebuttals |
Once again, I am not rebutting (contradicting) you with every comment. What you call rationalisation I call analysing the facts and trying to put it them in perspective so they can be discussed.
Psychology & culture are nice buzzwords because most people don't fully understand them and nobody can prove you're wrong.
| Sly wrote: | | Since 1937, our grand final record has been 4 flags, 18 losses, 2 draws. Those losses -- which occur regularly through generations -- suggest there is something wrong with the psychology of the football club come grand final day...As a club we need to change, because historically we're just doing the same stuff over and over |
It's great that you've identified what you think is the core problem.
I'll ask again: What is the SOLUTION to this problem, what do the players, coaches, board and supporters need to do to change this, how are you going to get the club on board with your solution and what can we as supporters do about it?
_________________
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/sav-sinks-the-dockers/ |
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Sly
Joined: 24 Dec 1999
Location: Australia
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| Quote: | | Collingwood would get less stick, both internally and externally, if we hadn't played in as many GFs. If our record was 15-14 I reckon there wouldn't be anywhere near as many threads like this. |
That is not putting into perspective. That's changing the facts. Our record is not 15-14. So how can that be used as a defense? Our record is 15-27-2. That's where the discussion begins.
And this:
| Quote: | | Do you hear supporters of these other clubs bemoaning their lack of success and talking about their culture, how hard their training track is or the words to their club song? |
So your evidence here again is something that doesn't exist. Opposition supporters cannot bemoan something that does not exist at their club.
And I've heard plenty of supporters complain about their particular club culture. You haven't? Are you serious? On Part 2 of The Rant, I talked about a Carlton friend who ditched his membership several years ago because of the way the club was being administrated. He wrote them a long, angry email. The Carlton president rang him up to talk him into staying. You think Collingwood supporters are the only ones who express discontent?
Look around you, mate. I'm not the outlier in my criticisms. Plenty of our supporters feel similarly. And your view on that?
| Quote: | | Was it thought provoking, or confirmation bias? |
You seem to believe all these complaints are just the rantings of delusional supporters, whereas I believe if enough people are seeing the same issues, you know what? Those issues probably exist. But when I countered your points, I'm getting defensive. Um, okay. So it was okay for you to dissect and counter our entire rant, but when I did it then it was defensiveness.
I have written and spoken extensively about what I believe Collingwood need to do. I don't just complain about shit. But in short (in no particular order):
There is an injury malaise at the club they need to investigate.
Anybody who thinks eight years topping injury lists is just bad luck is kidding themselves. Whether it's the training surface or a combination of things, something is happening at the club that's resulting in consistently high injury tolls.
They need to blueprint their goals for the future, as Richmond did, as Hawthorn have done (all the way up to 2050).
There is far more purpose and direction when you work towards set goals, rather than just making it up as you go along. (And I'm not going into it publicly, but what I heard a couple of years ago shows they were improvising.)
Our credo is 'Only the best'.
Who's the best at what they do at our club? I'll exclude the senior coach, as that's always subjective. But do we have the best fitness staff? Do we have the best medical staff? Look at how Hawthorn have rehabilitated players who've had serious injuries, compared to our track record where Elliott and Reid were missing huge chunks of football (and had to be sent to Germany), or it being announced de Goey will miss ten days, and ten weeks later he's still not back. I have no confidence that if one of our players suffers a soft-tissue injury, that he'll be back in the timeframe you'd expect. I'm sure if you ask around other supporters will feel similarly. The benefit of being a bigger club is having the resources to pay for that competitive edge.
Can we stop peddling how great a club we are?
I'm not saying we can't celebrate our history, but we go on like it's still today's achievement.
In the recent Collingwood documentary, even Nathan Buckley said straight out that we'd been a 'chest-beating club' and an 'arrogant club'. So this is the senior coach acknowledging the psychology of the club isn't in the club's best interests. If you read his book All I Can Be, he talks about how the club can lose itself in the hype. Again, this isn't me making this stuff up. This is coming directly from our senior coach.
You achieve greatness through accomplishment, not through self-adulation, or constantly using history to prop yourself up. Those two things we've done for as long as I've followed Collingwood. The best administration I've ever seen at Collingwood was after they almost closed their doors in 1986. From 1987 - 1990, they just shut up and ran the club like a business.
I have supported the retention of Buckley even when we were terrible because I know he sees through the hyperbole that's surrounded our club for as long as I've supported them.
When we lost the grand final in 2018, I was delighted with his speech at the Copeland that we needed to get better. He didn't blame the block on Maynard, he didn't use excuses or pot players (as Malthouse had done in 2003). It was just about getting better. Pendlebury talks about 'building something special'. I hope that's the case -- and removed from what we've known.
Now in saying you dissected and countered our original rant, you're free to do so. Anybody is. I'm not expecting everybody to agree with me unquestioningly. Everybody is free to their own opinion. I'm not going to keep going back and forth, because we obviously have different views.
Good luck to you. |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| Sly wrote: | | Our record is not 15-14. So how can that be used as a defense? Our record is 15-27-2. That's where the discussion begins |
What I'm talking about, or trying to talk about, is the definition of success. How can you be successful unless you define what success is, how it's measured, and benchmark yourself against your peers? It's a process, not a defense, contradiction or saying there's nothing wrong la-la-la.
You and a lot of other people are on record as saying footy is "all about winning flags", or words to that effect. If it's all about winning flags then in the history of the competition we're up there with Carlton and Essendon. But as I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't consider either them benchmarks in the modern era, and nor are Collingwood.
But what we hear a lot of, both internally (Pies supporters) and externally (oppo supporters, journos) is about how many GFs we've lost. Not surprising given the numbers, but clearly people are not just concerned with winning flags. That's the point I was trying to get at.
I suggested that people who aren't happy with a 15-27 record would be happy with a 15-14 record to illustrate my point. The number of flags won is the same.
So what is success? 1 flag every 5 years? Multiple flags in a row? And if you achieve the target, does it also matter how many times you failed? What time period should success be measured over - 100 years, 50 years, 20, 10? What about wooden spoons, do they detract from your success or are they a positive, an opportunity to bottom out, get some high draft picks and rebuild?
These aren't rebuttals, I'm not denying our relative lack of success in the last 60 years; they're discussion points the answers to which should inform our roadmap to achieving success..
| Sly wrote: | | Opposition supporters cannot bemoan something that does not exist at their club [training track hardness] |
I mentioned 3-4 things, you keep coming back to this 1. Maybe you should read my question as 'Do you hear other supporters complaining about >insert perceived cause of lack of success here< to the same extent that Collingwood supporters do with culture, the umpires, the fixture, AFL bias, the training track, the coach, the president, the lyrics of the club song?'.
It's actually a point where you & I agree; I call this 'loser culture' among our supporters where they make excuses that don't include the players. What we disagree on is how much influence this has on on-field results.
You certainly hear it from other clubs but I feel we've become experts at blaming external factors and I find it annoying and counterproductive.
| Sly wrote: | | You seem to believe all these complaints are just the rantings of delusional supporters |
That's not what Confirmation Bias means or implies. It's the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that affirms one's prior beliefs or hypotheses. It's a real thing. So when your comments were described by a particular person, whose own opinions are well-documented here, as "thought provoking" I wondered aloud whether that comment was put forth because your comments confirmed his expressed viewpoint. For something to be thought provoking it would by definition need to introduce new themes obviously.
It's human nature to want to apportion blame when things don't turn out the way you want. I do think, and have said quite a few times here on Nicks, that some supporters get very invested in particular 'causes' whether that be psychology/culture, the hardness of the training track, or the AFL/umpire conspiracy against us, without necessarily examining them in enough detail to determine of they are causal or coincidental
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So to summarise your action plan (and the current status):
1. Investigate the cause of our high injury toll over the last 8 years [Internal review conducted in 2019; outcome unknown/unclear]
2. Blueprint goals for the future ['Forever' blueprint was produced in 2017 after the internal review; unpublished]
3. Leverage our finances to recruit the best medical and fitness staff [Kevin White replaced Bill Davoeren as head of fitness in 2017; obviously didn't have any noticeable effect]
4. Stop peddling how great a club we are [were] and change the psychology/culture of the club (including supporters) to one of pride based on achievement and avoid hyperbole [Fair to say no change I think]
5. "Shut up" (sack the president?) and administer the club like a business [$3.8m net profit for FY19]
6. Retain the senior coach (Buckley) as a driver of cultural change [Currently contracted until end of 2021]
Further to my comments above on what success looks like, I'd like to hear more about what you think the specific goals for #2. I think we all remember this with much hilarity: https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2011-03-10/the-blue-print
I also want to ask if you think the club song lyrics should be changed as part of #4? |
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shawthing 
Joined: 04 Jul 2019
Location: Victoria Park
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| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: |
Do you realise St. Kilda are 1-7 and Swans are 5-12 in GFs? Both worse than us in terms of winning %. |
Oh great. You know we're scraping the bottom of the barrel when we compare outselves at any time to St Blunder and the Sydney Wankers. They have a worst GF percentage than us. Well whoopy doo.
There is one single reason why we haven't won a cracker since 2010. It's not the coach, it's the recruiting. The rest of the league have gone big and we always draft small. Derek Hine is a midget and he only likes fellow midgets. That's modern Collingwood in a nutshell. |
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Wonka
Joined: 06 Jan 2019
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| shawthing wrote: |
It's not the coach, it's the recruiting. |
Won't matter who we recruit if they are always injured. |
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