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Zimbabwe 2.0 (South Africa)

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Jezza Taurus

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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:42 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
As I said earlier, what goes around comes around.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Pies4shaw Leo

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Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:16 pm
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No, of course not - but if the first wrong is so disgustingly egregious, it’s a little harder to be concerned about the second. If they hadn’t enslaved an entire people and gnawed collectively on their bones, they might not have been quite such an obvious target.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:55 pm
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^ lets hope nobody disagrees with what our grandfathers and mothers did. One wonders what would ensue, by analogy, if the aboriginal people decided that our inheritance - and the good and useful work we have done with it - is similarly tainted and that we deserve the same treatment. The beatings and the screams and the destruction of a brutalized minority might not sound so distant.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:28 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
If they ever take over, I fully expect it. They won’t get the Lamborghini, though - it has an iris-recognition locking system (well, they won’t get it unless they keep one of my eyes intact, anyway).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbM--4-z0cs

scene at 1:22. Razz

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Pies4shaw Leo

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Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:16 am
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Yes, Stui, that’s the sort of thing I had in mind - but I didn’t need to see it on an empty stomach.😱😱😱😱😱
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:40 am
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-05/fact-check-were-400-white-south-african-farmers-murdered-year/9591724
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:35 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-05/fact-check-were-400-white-south-african-farmers-murdered-year/9591724


That’s ok then. It is only about 50 White farmers murdered per year, on average, across nearly 20 years. It’s pretty easy to be relaxed about that if you and your kids live in Melbourne. The Australian aboriginals are not likely to kill you or your family to take over your city penthouse, so why should you care about racial murders in South Africa ? It’s not like they arose from the policies our protests and sanctions brought into being ? Nothing to do with us at all.

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Pi Gemini



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:51 pm
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new documentary on south Africa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_bDc7FfItk

might not appeal to the 'what goes around comes around' crowd

Wink

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:17 pm
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^ what’s the source of that doco, Pi ? Is it from respectable media outlet ? (By which term I mean an outlet that is conscious of its own biases and believes that truth should stand superior to those biases).
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Pi Gemini



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:06 pm
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Independent doco maker Lauren Southern, not sanctioned by the South African government, if you look up Lauren Southern you get 'far right' firebrand and all the usual stuff, all that really means is not mainstream.

credibility rating? not really sure. Anything you get out of South Africa has a political 'sphere'. I dont think you can trust anything totally.

It came to me via Blood Sisters crime scene cleaners, Their records are at odds with SA government figures on farm murders.
https://www.iol.co.za/pretoria-news/they-scrub-away-deathly-horrors-1461838

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:26 pm
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Pi wrote:
Independent doco maker Lauren Southern, not sanctioned by the South African government, if you look up Lauren Southern you get 'far right' firebrand and all the usual stuff, all that really means is not mainstream.

credibility rating? not really sure. Anything you get out of South Africa has a political 'sphere'. I dont think you can trust anything totally.

It came to me via Blood Sisters crime scene cleaners, Their records are at odds with SA government figures on farm murders.
https://www.iol.co.za/pretoria-news/they-scrub-away-deathly-horrors-1461838


Hmm, not sure how independent she is, judging from her bio. One always prefers docos made by people who might have a mind that is at least ajar.

Still, I’ll be surprised if there is not some truth in it. There have been some brave black people who have tried to prevent South Africa from falling into the same pit of brutality , retributive racism, powerlust and corruption as the rest of Africa.... but all of the emerging evidence is that their cause is lost, and tragedy will probably follow. Meanwhile the jamboree of conscience warriors who forced apartheid’s sudden and chaotic dismantling will have moved on to their next cause, and the screams of those left behind will not trouble their consciences.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:31 pm
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Pi wrote:
if you look up Lauren Southern you get 'far right' firebrand and all the usual stuff, all that really means is not mainstream.


Um, ok. She sounds pretty far-right to me, unless one calibrates that axis in unusual ways:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lauren_Southern

I’m not really interested in that crowd’s motivated spin on issues as serious as this; if you want a fairly chilling, warts-and-all representation of the parlous state of contemporary South African society, I’d recommend Louis Theroux’s “Law and Disorder in Johannesburg”:

https://archive.org/details/LawAndDisorderInJohannesburg-LouisTheroux

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:33 am
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In a sense, the specifics of a documentary like this are not really important. Despite the best hopes for South Africa, it is clear that every documentary maker finds similar broad themes -of crime, corruption, covert and overt violence and intimidation, and the progressive breakdown of a rich society, much along a template that has been repeated across Africa since the 1960s. We should consider whether our rich, stable societies could one day follow the same path, albeit with different scenery.

Apartheid was a wicked and exploitative system. Perhaps the only thing that could have worsened its consequences for all concerned was the summary removal of it, with an immediate transfer to black majority rule despite all of the evidence accumulated in the rest of Africa decades before. It needed a hard-nosed, conservative change and security plan, allowing for the very gradual integration of black South Africans into better roles in the economy and in politics. It got black-majority rule - an interesting term in itself when you think about it for a second.

Giving SA democracy the way we did was akin to the US giving Iraq democracy in 2003. In a riven society, democracy should be at the end of any process, not the commencement. But tender consciences demand instant gratification, and now that a new brutality has replaced the old, and supplemented it with lawless disorder so that there is no escape for anyone, the “anyone but people like me” justice-mongers have flown off to lay their eggs on some other quarry, oblivious to what they left behind.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:26 am
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Wow, really? I think South Africa has a lot of problems, for sure, but I'm not sure that they include democracy or "black-majority rule", which is simply the fact of all citizens, the majority of whom are black, having an equal vote (I'm curious as to what exactly you find so sinister about that, particularly considering that white South Africans can and do run for office). Certainly, I appreciate that destabilising an established political system can have seriously negative consequences (which is part of the story of Iraq, indeed, but let's not forget that it also involved invasion and military occupation, civil war, installation of a minority-run sectarian leadership, total disbanding of the armed forces, etc. – the US "giving" Iraq democracy is a pretty strange way to put it; giving them a hospital handball might be closer to the truth).

Could the transition beyond Apartheid in South Africa have been handled differently? Perhaps; I haven't studied the country's history in depth. The ANC certainly don't inspire a great deal of confidence. But it seems like one thing that the handover of power didn't bring about was the huge numbers of people currently living in squalid conditions, which is and always has been of course the textbook breeding ground for crime and hopelessness – surely we all understand that this poverty and lawlessness didn't spontaneously appear in 1994. The suggestion that the things we see in these documentaries are the fruit of the work of Mandela et al. is, I think, a pretty grave accusation, and one that I don't think is borne out by the historical record.

https://theconversation.com/south-africa-has-made-progress-but-deprivation-still-bears-apartheid-scars-66813

Quote:
These initiatives radically improved access to key services. Between 1996 and 2011:

The share of individuals with access to electricity improved from 44.5% to 74.6%;

Access to clean water increased from 57.4% to 74.6%;

Access to pit latrines or flush toilets improved from 81.9% to 92.8%;

Access to formal housing has risen from 63.5% to 79.8%; and

The share of individuals with access to regular refuse removal increased from 48.1% to 61.8% over the same period.


This gives us some basic idea of what South Africa has emerged from. The myth of the unjust-but-otherwise-basically-functional Apartheid era needs to go – my impression is that it worked ok for whites (elite minority classes in caste systems always do tend to live well off the misfortunes of others), but that it also had little regard for the well-being of the 80–90% of the population who were of African descent, who were quite likely worse off than they are now on most metrics. Such disadvantage easily traverses generations and takes much hard work and patience to overturn; the current socioeconomic situation of our own former Apartheid subjects here in Australia attests to that.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:49 am
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Firstly, as to the statistics, I think it is very probable that any reformist government committed to redressing the economic condition of black South Africans could have achieved better than that, especially as the period in question covers a commodity supercycle. I can’t prove it, but those seem to me fairly modest achievements in a rich country in 25 years.

As to black South Africans having the vote, well, voting everywhere comes within a constitutional structure designed to create stability and prevent demagoguery, and the constitutional structure of a very fragile, politically immature society full of resentments and inequality could have been structured to limit the power of the ANC and hinder corruption. I am not proposing a specific solution, but let’s brainstorm a few constitutional ideas as follows :

1. The parliament for the next thirty years will have equal representation of people classified as white, black and Asian colored, in a ratio of one-third each. The armed forces shall have no more than 50% black South Africans.

2. An international panel of jurors and statesmen will be established to set targets for the progressive inclusion of black South Africans into economic life and politics, and to oversee its execution by the government. This international panel shall appoint a president serving the normal functions of a head of state, including the appointment of heads of the armed forces, which shall be ratified by the international panel. It shall also appoint and oversee the workings of an independent commission against corruption in public life.

I didn’t think that my point about democracy being “given” to Iraq needed ironic quote marks, but perhaps it did. Societies which have been brutalized and broken for a long time do not tend to prosper under a summary transition to unfettered democracy. See Iraq, see Russia, etc.

Finally, I was not thinking of Mandela, who seems to me probably sincere, though his entanglement with “necklace Winnie” should always make one pause. My objection is to the sanctions leviers and the demonstrators in safe western towns who demanded the immediate dismantling of apartheid and transition to black majority rule without considering the lessons of history. They sleep easy with their consciences - no doubt, far more easily than the person who gets the boot in the face at 3am, far away where their wish was fulfilled.

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