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Eddie in “hot water” on Hot Seat

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:14 pm
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The US is a great, indispensable democracy which sometimes elects terrible governments, and the Iraq War was a dreadful error by an atrociously bad president. What that has to do with Eddie’s mildly humorous remark about the supposed proclivity of certain groups of to save money rather than spend it, is anyone’s guess.

Oh, and nationalism, xenophobia and racism are often related. That does not make them identical, if you care about words. But those selling ideology usually find distinctions, like independent thought, a nuisance.

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Redlight 



Joined: 11 Jun 2009


PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:56 pm
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Magpietothemax wrote:
Redlight wrote:

I find this viewpoint troubling. You're falling all over yourself to excuse barbaric acts on one side and demonising everything the other side does. So, by your reckoning the middle-east is a blameless victim and the west are all war-criminals?

The 9/11 attacks precede the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. The response by the west was not surprising and, in war, many innocent people will be killed. It has always been thus.

Should the west feel bad because we can use well equipped fighting forces in order to limit our own casualties? Should we not do that to make it 'fairer'?

If there is to be an ongoing threat to the 'western way of life' then I'm not feeling compelled to apologise for our defence of it.

Just take a moment to compare the relative freedoms and lifestyles of a typical middle-eastern society and a typical western one. I'm prepared to contend that western values and approaches, while not perfect, are far superior to the alternatives.

I don't understand the self-loathing.

Redlight, thankyou for your well measured response. I will just clarify a couple of points about my viewpoint for your consideration. "The West" are not all war criminals, because neither you nor I were responsible for launching a war based on lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction. It was the governments who did so. The only war criminals I am referring to are the political figures in Parliament and in the US Congress who either willingly joined the war, or who supplied a cover for the criminality of those who did. There is absolutely no self=loathing in my attitude. The population at large bears no responsibility for the actions of the politicians.
Iraq did not pose any threat to Western civilization, any more than Kim Jong does today. How could these tiny, and impoverished countries, pose such a threat? Moreover, Iraq was not implicated in September 11 at all, but Saudi Arabia was.
The real aggressor is the US government, which represents the super wealthy in America. As for the relative freedoms in Western society compared with those in the Middle East, yes I agree Western society is still far more democratic. But then, how do you explain that Saudi Arabia is one of America's closest allies in the Middle east?
The aim of the American government has nothing to do with defending "democracy".


I suspect we're going to disagree on the details, for instance I think the US (and then their allies) went back to Iraq largely because the 'unfinished business' of the first Gulf war left them wanting to believe the evidence. That and an unfortunate abundance of Bushes.

I share your disquiet about the Saudi's. If it had been up to me they'd getting used to the feel of a new democratic system by now and we'd be celebrating the bringing home of our troops.

Anyway, Go Pies!
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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:06 pm
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Pies2016 wrote:
I wonder if Nicks has ever been on the agenda at the White House.

I'm sure that Trump doesn't go for the Pies.
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Magpietothemax 



Joined: 27 Apr 2013


PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:21 pm
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watt price tully wrote:


You spitting the dummy (did I use the noun advisedly?) and feeling outrage complaining about other people being outraged. Now that's ironic.

That is hilarious, and brilliant. The outrage of those outraged at the outrage of others is so ironic.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:59 am
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Magpietothemax wrote:
Pies2016 wrote:
I wonder if Nicks has ever been on the agenda at the White House.

I'm sure that Trump doesn't go for the Pies.


Laughing I have it on good authority (I spoke with the Russians) that Trump is a Carlton supporter.

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E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:18 am
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watt price tully wrote:
Magpietothemax wrote:
Pies2016 wrote:
I wonder if Nicks has ever been on the agenda at the White House.

I'm sure that Trump doesn't go for the Pies.


Laughing I have it on good authority (I spoke with the Russians) that Trump is a Carlton supporter.


Trump doesn't support anyone but himself so is incapable of having a team....

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:14 pm
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E wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
Magpietothemax wrote:
Pies2016 wrote:
I wonder if Nicks has ever been on the agenda at the White House.

I'm sure that Trump doesn't go for the Pies.


Laughing I have it on good authority (I spoke with the Russians) that Trump is a Carlton supporter.


Trump doesn't support anyone but himself so is incapable of having a team....


Laughing However, he looked into the club and saw himself. Loved what he saw. Wink

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Collingwood Crackerjack 



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:12 pm
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Pies2016 wrote:
I wonder if Nicks has ever been on the agenda at the White House.


Are you kidding? Judging by the tone and content of a lot of the posts in this thread, I reckon a fair few on Nicks must be working for the current administration!

Takes all types I suppose Laughing

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Adam Treloar 3 Votes 



Joined: 09 May 2017


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:18 pm
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If North Korea starts preemptive missile strikes the one country we will be relying on to protect us is the US.

It’s the same with police officers, people bag the shit out of them until they find themselves in a dangerous situation. Appallingly they then have no shame in dialling 000 and expecting the police to risk their own safety to protect them.

The peace we live in today has been hard won by the US, Australia and others and not by the keyboard warriors on Nicks taking pot shots at the US. As a former Australian soldier I am very happy that we have the US as one of our allies. If we didn’t we would all be speaking Japanese now but the half wits that have never given anything to our country conveniently forget that also.

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E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:56 am
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Adam Treloar 3 Votes wrote:
If North Korea starts preemptive missile strikes the one country we will be relying on to protect us is the US.

It’s the same with police officers, people bag the shit out of them until they find themselves in a dangerous situation. Appallingly they then have no shame in dialling 000 and expecting the police to risk their own safety to protect them.

The peace we live in today has been hard won by the US, Australia and others and not by the keyboard warriors on Nicks taking pot shots at the US. As a former Australian soldier I am very happy that we have the US as one of our allies. If we didn’t we would all be speaking Japanese now but the half wits that have never given anything to our country conveniently forget that also.


very well said and thank you for your service.

however, i think people can still discuss mistakes the US has made in being that protective leader who we love and respect. Just like we can hold police officers responsible when they abuse their power.

problem with the world is people on read and people only hear the side of the argument they want to hear which does not get either side heard or respected. In the USA, this problem couldn't be worse. if you have MSNBC and Fox news on your TV, watch them both at the same time. It will blow your mind. you'll think they are describing two different universes.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:04 am
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^ While I agree with the above (esp. thank you AT3V for your service), we should not be too romantic about the US. In the end, it will act in line with its own interests, which will not always be ours. The best we can say is that it has probably had a greater military preeminence than any other power in world history, and abused it remarkably little. It also fought, like us, on the ethically better side of the three great wars of the 20th Century, and it’s culturally sympathetic to us, at least for now, which matters.

However, whilst we should cherish and nourish its friendly relations with us, great powers have no permanent friends, nor do they like high-priced friendships.

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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm
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Hope this one pass’s muster as tonight Ed passed this comment “As a Pom you wouldn’t have showered “

Ha ha I thought

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September Zeros 



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:06 pm
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The off season.....like pulling off your own fingernails and dipping your finger tips in acid. Painful ....and hard to understand why you put yourself through it.
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BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:46 am
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Mugwump wrote:
^ While I agree with the above (esp. thank you AT3V for your service), we should not be too romantic about the US. In the end, it will act in line with its own interests, which will not always be ours. The best we can say is that it has probably had a greater military preeminence than any other power in world history, and abused it remarkably little. It also fought, like us, on the ethically better side of the three great wars of the 20th Century, and it’s culturally sympathetic to us, at least for now, which matters.

However, whilst we should cherish and nourish its friendly relations with us, great powers have no permanent friends, nor do they like high-priced friendships.

Just a comment on your last sentence, people/organisations in a position of power and responsibility operate in a lonely universe. If you seek approval of others before you act, you usually fall flat on your face, as Obahma found out. Not passing judgement on Trump, but it's obvious he makes his own decisions and doesn't give a damn what others think.

Coaches/ presidents of football clubs are no different. When Buckley was copping it from the supporter on forum night he cut a pretty lonely figure on the podium. It was good he stated we no longer follow the formula of the reigning premiership team. We now create our own history as a football team and do our own thing. I think when Buckley was a player he did his own thing and his formula obviously worked. Then he became the captain and he copped criticism for not listening to others, so he changed and became more congenial to what others were saying. Then he became the coach and started listening a little too much and allowed decisions which hurt the club, such as bad recruiting decisions and poor decisions about who we appointed to the coaching staff. Now he seems to have got the balance right with the appointments made this off season. What he needs to remember is that coaching caper is not a popularity contest and leadership involves decision making that is going to alienate yourself with your critics while pleasing your sycophants who are going to love you whatever you do.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:11 am
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^ Agreed, BIFC, and a nice post. God I hope Buckley cuts through this year. Trump will always be a malignant and reckless buffoon in my eyes, though.
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