Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Was Buckley really a good kick?

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> General Discussion
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:26 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

E wrote:
...

Finally, an observation about those who are crapping on about Dustin Martin's efficiency stats. i dont have a view on Martin's kicking, since i dont pay much attention to the opposition. However, even blind freddy knows that due to his ball winning ability, he is likely to get the ball in situations where disposal is not the point. Situations where lesser players wouldn't even get the ball. I suspect kid danger is exactly the same. You know, those plays where he busts a pack, gets the ball and moves it forward by any means.

To then criticize the accuracy of that type of possession is nonsense and the reason why stats are a largely useless exercise.


An efficiency stat is only of any value if you find a way to compare how many of those kicks are contested possessions vs uncontested possessions. So many variables. This is the reason why stats in the hands of the wrong person, are largely useless. The idea that you would compare the efficiency stats of the best hard ball and high traffic footballer in the league to a deep in defense back-man is too preposterous even for words.


E, you got the discussion of Dusty's kicking completely wrong, which you'll see if you (re)read it.

No one was criticizing his kicking on the basis of statistics. Inky claimed his kicking was very good despite the statistics and claimed this was reason to distrust statistics. I was surprised, because I think Dusty's kicking is very poor and, as far as I can tell, this is a very widely held opinion (e.g. by commentators and Richmond supporters alike --- wade into a Richmond forum and you'll see that they say this), so this is not at all evidence against the usefulness of statistics.

I gave an example (it's just one example, but I think it's telling), which you can watch for yourself. Let me repeat what I wrote about that example.

K wrote:

My impression of Dusty's kicking is based on seeing things like the following:
https://twitter.com/AFL/status/906125261019553793/video/1 .
I think people watching are perhaps so distracted by the classic dont-argue, the run, and the resulting end-to-end goal that they don't dwell much on the horrible kick (landing between two Geelong players, not spinning properly, although executed under no physical pressure).


I cannot imagine Buckley ever miskicking a ball like that in that situation. [All that is not to deny that Dusty is a very, very good player, as is Dangerfield. It's just that the discussion was about kicking, not about dont-argues.] If quoting oneself is a sin, then having already done so I might as well sin big. For comparison purposes, here is an example I gave previously of Buckley's kicking (again, it's just one example, but I think it's telling).

K wrote:

As for visual impressions, many would think this typical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_hndOXycu0


Last edited by K on Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
mudlark 



Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Location: Maroochydore Qld

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:40 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Hasn't this load of dog droppings raised it's smelly head before??? How peurile.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
mudlark 



Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Location: Maroochydore Qld

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:44 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Piesnchess wrote:
WE all have our opinions of Bucks the COACH, but its pretty hard to try and sully his playing record, and how he played the game, by amateurs who have never played at the top level, is a bit rough, to say the very least.!

I think to underline your statement P&C ,not many people have won a Norm Smith in a losing grand final side and I will add that we waz robbed.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:25 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies2016 wrote:
Well I would take a RELEVANT statistic derived from a large sample base over an ill informed agenda driven opinion any day.
...... but that's just my opinion.

Power based explosive mid fielders are becoming the new flavour in the AFL.
Their focus is on winning the ball against the odds and just banging the ball forward without the necessarily the need for pin point precision.
...


Yes, I agree with P16 about the usefulness of stats.

Just a few days ago, the AFL website dripped out a small fraction of the stats they have. Even such limited stats can be revealing.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-12-28/stats-leaders-in-every-category-in-2017

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-12-28/alltime-season-stats-recordholders

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-12-28/stats-glossary-every-stat-explained

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-12-28/stats-kings-players-who-hit-new-heights-in-2017
[For this last link, I advise ignoring the text, which is complete nonsense. The author of the text clearly doesn't know how to interpret stats correctly. This is the danger of stats: they can be horribly misinterpreted.]


For example, Paddy's & Dusty's strengths & weaknesses are on display among the leading stats for 2017.

Dusty: 68 broken tackles, 79 centre bounce clearances, 92 centre bounce first possessions, 137 inside 50s, 122 kicks inside 50...
but also 48 ground kicks, 32 ineffective ground kicks, 150 ineffective kicks, 61 clanger kicks...
Paddy: 385 contested possessions, 194 first possessions, 163 hardball gets, 162 clearances, 45 ball up clearances...

Notes:

"Ineffective" disposals by definition are "not advantageous to the team, but do not directly turn the ball over to the opposition".
"Clangers", on the other hand, "give possession directly to the opposition".
Thus, clanger kicks are not a subset of ineffective kicks, and Dusty had 150+61=211 bad kicks in total.

A "ground kick" is "a deliberate kick without taking possession that gains either significant distance from the point of contact or an uncontested possession for a teammate".
By that definition, "ineffective ground kicks" are not a subset of "ground kicks", so Dusty had 48+32=80 total kicks off the ground.

Kick-ins are not a subset of kicks.
It does not explicitly say whether ground kicks are a subset of kicks (but given the previous sentence, I'm guessing no).

A "contested possession" "has been won when the ball is in dispute". It does not necessarily mean the disposal was under physical pressure; in particular, it includes loose-ball gets and frees for.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:17 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

masoncox wrote:
Piesnchess wrote:
I WILL take the last word on this from the late Bob Rose, whom many think was the Magpies greatest ever player. On Bucks, just before he passed away, Rose said, in his opinion, Buckley is the greatest player HE ever saw play for the PIes, end of story. This is fact.

It was about his kicking and he wasn't the greatest player in post war at collingwood full stop.


DP

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.


Last edited by loki04 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:18 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

masoncox wrote:
Piesnchess wrote:
I WILL take the last word on this from the late Bob Rose, whom many think was the Magpies greatest ever player. On Bucks, just before he passed away, Rose said, in his opinion, Buckley is the greatest player HE ever saw play for the PIes, end of story. This is fact.

It was about his kicking and he wasn't the greatest player in post war at collingwood full stop.


Buckley is the best field kick I've seen bar none! Daicos was a great feild kick but Buckley was better imo.

Early days he missed some long some shots on goal (many of his misses were within a 1m of the goal posts rarely sprayed them) which got better as he aged.

I always laugh at how Buckley is one of the rare champions who's status went down after retirement rather then UP.

A lot of the flogs who criticised Bucks during his playing Days would always get shot down as each game he dominated and his kicking was amazing.

But now he has retired the same flogs come out the wood work because there is nothing to remind everyone just how good he was.

Bucks rarely fluffed a field kick. The way your mate describes his
"kicking" suits James Hird and Voss much more then Buckley. Both were regular "shankers".

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:22 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

masoncox wrote:
Piesnchess wrote:
masoncox wrote:
Piesnchess wrote:
I WILL take the last word on this from the late Bob Rose, whom many think was the Magpies greatest ever player. On Bucks, just before he passed away, Rose said, in his opinion, Buckley is the greatest player HE ever saw play for the PIes, end of story. This is fact.

It was about his kicking and he wasn't the greatest player in post war at collingwood full stop.


I think Bob Roses opinion, carries FAR more weight than that of ours, for what its worth mate, come on, and from my memory Bucks was at least as good a kick as Pendles is, I don't recall him fluffing many, he did kick some very long goals. Surprised

The thing was his goal kicking by the stats alone was lousy. It is an interesting point. His DE ( disposal efficiency ) is not displayed or recorded as far as I know.


Why don't you go download some old pies games of Buckley and see how laughable your suggestion is.

Buckley was the best player of the last 25 years (and best kick) imo he was better then Hird and Voss who were largely overrated due to team success.

He was utterly dominant no matter what scrubs or talented players around him.

A young Bucks in our team now and he would immediately be our best player.

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:27 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
Piesnchess wrote:
ALL I know is, I wish we had a guy like him now, in our mids, with his undoubted class, and ability to bring others into the game, Treloar and TA are great players, but Bucks, at his best, was truly elite.

He was a great player - and there's no doubt that he's better than guys like those (ranked, as they are, by good judges like Buckenara as B or C graders). In my respectful opinion, Pendlebury is a better midfielder than Buckley but that's only because Pendlebury is the third player I would pick in a Collingwood team, out of all the players I've seen, after Carman and Greening.


Laughable!

With all respect to Pendles he has NOTHING on Buckley.

Buckley was much more attacking and daring with his kicking and could pull the team along with him, Pendles lacks that ability to drag his team or change the momentum of games like Buckley did.

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:34 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

MJ23 wrote:
Crazy thread.
Been said, set shot goal kicking much diff to midfield shots at goal especially by Bucks who could convert from a long way out.
Good indication would be assists or score involvment.

Bucks was the best penetrating, Feild, short/long or however you want to measure kick I've seen in a Collingwood jumper.

Pendles is up with Obree in the left/right foot kicking ability but not the distance and penetration Bucks had.



Huh? I'm seeing some weird shit posted in here.

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:39 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

5 from the wing on debut wrote:
Geek wrote:
madman wrote:
one of the few players in AFL history, that was tagged his whole career, 1st game to last game. That is how good Bucks was.

end of story.


Double tagged through the late 90's too. Still got it 30 times a game and delivered it exceptionally.

I was too young to really appreciate how god Daicos was so Buckley has the best kick I can say I've seen for the Pies. Dids was pretty bloody good but I'll trust the old timers when they say he wasn't fit to tie Daic's boots.

Agree that Jarman was also brilliant but was a different style. Leon had such beautiful control off the boot and Betts has assumed his mantle. Reckon Leon had the better field kick though.

f course, if you are going to say that goal kicking is the be-all-end-all of kicking ability, then the best kick at the Pies was Jack Anthony. Just saying. Had a nice little run there though.


As for the Daicos/Didak thoughts, I loved Didak as a player and he was a great kick but he was nowhere near Daicos' standard around goals. Daicos did things that had never been done before, which modern players now train to do as a matter of course, but don't, with extremely few exceptions, do as well. Betts is fantastic close to goal, but he can't bang through a 65 metre torp like Daicos did.

If your life depended upon a goal from the boundary being kicked, no-one that saw Daicos and Buckley play would be selecting Buckley. Go to You Tube and look at our first goal in the 90 GF. Daicos was hard on the boundary, gathered the ball under pressure from Mark Thomson if I recall correctly, then drilled it over the goal umpires head. I still get goose bumps just picturing that after all these years.

When Daicos had the ball there was an electric feeling in the crowd, that you were about to see something special. I always likened Buckley to Dunstall. They never did anything outlandish or particularly flashy, they just executed the basics extremely well, time and time again.

Buckley was an elite field kick but not so reliable close to goals. I don't care about the stats, that's what I remember. Buckley's kicking - or decision making - to my knowledge first came under fire after the drawn Anzac Day game when he kicked to Sav, who had about 10 by that stage but also 3 opponents on him, rather than running slightly further and kicking for goal. Can't blame him for kicking to a bloke that was on fire though.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4_mS1P1GSg

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.


Last edited by loki04 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:42 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:41 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

mudlark wrote:
Hasn't this load of dog droppings raised it's smelly head before??? How peurile.


I don't even know how anyone and I mean ANYONE can say that Buckley wasn't a great kick and keep a straight face!

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
loki04 Leo

Tiger Treloar lmfao NOPE.


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Location: Broken Hill

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:53 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

glasseyevfx wrote:
I believe Buckley was a good kick, but I also think a lot of the reputation comes from the fact it was an aesthetically pleasing kick. It was direct low and spun well off the boot - he also had a style that commentators and fellow footballers liked to point at.
I was never a huge fan of Buckley - I felt the team was too Buckley aware and the game plan too Buckley aware - it made us predictable. Did it cost us games? - I dunno we made plenty of grand final appearances while he was there.
I was always a fan of players like Swanny - less conventional but more effective.


Swan more effective then Buckley? You are kidding yourself Swan was a great player but Bucks was better then him. Swan like Juddy was an ordinary kick.

_________________
Up the Mighty Mags 2016.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
jonmac533 



Joined: 03 Jan 2018


PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:20 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to worry loki - the FIGJAM campaign caused even some Collingwood supporters to be closet Buckley haters.
There is a small percentage of so-called Collingwood supporters that are in a continual cringe at perceived criticism from outside the club.
These two plus the young who haven't seen him play and the ignorant form a small alliance of Buckley smearers who keep bringing up this sh1t.

_________________
Pies forever
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Mods - please close this ridiculous thread down. For a supposed Collingwood Fansite, it is utterly embarrassing.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Woods 

Buckley - turns boys into men


Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:23 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

RudeBoy wrote:
Mods - please close this ridiculous thread down. For a supposed Collingwood Fansite, it is utterly embarrassing.


Seconded.

Those in favour?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 10 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 8 of 10   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group