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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| K wrote: | | E wrote: | ...
Of greater interest, i have watched Buckley bring the best out of numerous players that other clubs had otherwise given up on. Lyndon Dunn, Travis Varcoe, Will Hoskin Elliot, Jack Crisp to name but a few. No doubt Buckley has done something wrong with those guys too.
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E, are these really examples of players Buckley brought the best out of? It could be argued that some of these are just examples of astute recruiting. It could also be argued that some of these are examples of neither (i.e. are at best moderate wins for us).
WHE, for example, just had a lot of injuries and was competing against a multitude of first-round picks at his former club. It's not clear to me that Varcoe is a better player than he was at Geelong, although many here seem to believe it. His last season at Geelong and first season at Collingwood look quite similar statistically. And he seems to have had quite a few injuries at both clubs, making it comparison harder. |
K, it is an interesting question, isnt it.
I think Varcoe's early years at Geelong were fantastic. By the time he got traded, i think he had lost it (hence why he was traded for basically nothing). I think we have all been surprised by his effectiveness at Collingwood. so if i think back to the time of the trade, i would say Bucks has brought out his best.
Dunn is clearly a case where he has played better than Melbourne were getting out of him.
WHE is an interesting one. Even though everything you say is true, i think he defintiely went from potentially good AFL player to an actual good AFL player. And he seems to be getting better and better finishing the season really strongly. It could just be injuries and opportunity, but it is still a fact that he is playing his best footy under Bucks.
I raised this entire point in the first place to rebut the notion that its the coaches fault that Jonno Marsh isn't a star because he had a lot of good qualities but decided to give it away. i think you have to look at both sides of the coin.
Obviously its never as black and white, i think Buckley has a pretty good track record of bringing out the best in many players.
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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| E wrote: | | 35forever wrote: | I never got much on why or how we lost Marsh. Not delisted, not traded, just went home & gave it away at top level.The kid had all the tools, unfortunately he also had one coaching him. Its cost us several really smart young guys. Marsh could have been a gun, as Could Kyle Martin. That kid reminded me of Greening, he was agile, skilful, and kicked regular goals. His 3 gams in his first year were excellent and netted 6 goals or so. Then he was dropped because Buck's mate Dasher Young was fit again. Didn’t get another look until the following year. He played a game as a sub, came on well into the last, and that was it. No more. He won our 2s B&F but was so disgusted by his treatment that he chucked the game completely and went back to the VFL. Just 2 of the kids who couldn’t stay under Suckley. There will be more.
Anyone fool enough to believe a player tells the media the truth about his coach really needs a long hard think, especially in a Dictatorship. What do you think would happen? Much like a North Korean telling CNN that KJU is a stupid fat nut-job.
Fortunately Faz is one of Buckley's pets so we should get to keep him. God help any kid who isn't, Keefe is an example, payed great games in the twos most weeks but never got a shot. He was also among our best in the first pre-season game, but was it. We could use him. White too was showing good form in the twos, but chucked it in last week because he knows he's not getting any more games under Buckley. I hope he likes Marty Hoare.
2018 will simply be a matter of how well our boys can go without a coach, as we've decided not to bother with one. My hope is that Pendles takes on more "on-field coaching". He & Steelo could run the game with no one in the box, and we'd win 19 games.
I think Faz will have his best year in 2018, he did it this year despite missing several games, passing 200 points for the first time in his career. He's one of the best goal sneaks in the game, and worked harder than I've ever seen him work in the second half of the year. |
i find it very amusing when coaches are blamed for a player failing to make it. If the player went on to have a stellar career at another club, MAYBE i would support the view, but as far as i can tell neither Martin nor Marsh look like AFL players.
Just because you happen to like the potential of a player, doesn't mean the coach did something wrong because your view was naive!!!
Of greater interest, i have watched Buckley bring the best out of numerous players that other clubs had otherwise given up on. Lyndon Dunn, Travis Varcoe, Will Hoskin Elliot, Jack Crisp to name but a few. No doubt Buckley has done something wrong with those guys too.
And just to pre-empt the haters likely response to this, if Lyndon Dunn wasnt good enough to get a game at Melbourne and yet he is our best key defensive player, doesnt it tell you something about the relative list strengths at Melbourne and Collingwood. And if our list isn't as good as Melbourne's, then isn't it great how competitive Buckley has made the pies despite this fact.
ONe of these days, Collingwood fans will accept two years of bottom dwelling so that we can recruit the best players in the country to Collingwood! Until then, we continue to do our best with limitations on the assets we have at our disposal. one of those assets is the great man, Nathan Buckley. It would be nice to acknowledge that once in a while. |
Oh my GOD!
Okay, firstly, I didn't say Buckley got rid of Marsh, I said I "Didn’t know" why he left! But fine, lets have a think about how many "mysterious" departures we've had under Bucks... People like Dane Beams, and Harry O, so many "It’s a family thing" exits. Didn’t get that under previous coach.
Actually I believe that since 2014 the Buckley regime has been extremely good at developing young players, and getting the best out of imports: Grundy, Maynard, Crisp, JdG, Darcy, Cox, Smith, Phillips, WHE, Ramma, Shaz, Crocker, Wills, and yes, Dunn, Howe, & Varcs. He started really badly with the likes of Dasher Young, Jordy Russell, & Q-stick, but got much, much better. I would have all the above (first list) in our best 22. I've said this several times, 7 I'd happily keep him on as a dev coach, but his giant ego wouldn’t allow it, would it? My only problem is the way it gets very obvious who his faves are, and who has fallen away. Clearly Smith, Ramma, and others including Kyle Martin (oh, btw, there have been articles about how well Martin & Marsh have gone at the lower level, both said they didn't want to play at AFL level, and I believe both fell out of Figgy's "fave" list)
But what I really hate is the lying, bullshit, and "no explanation" we keep getting. They really do think we're as stupid as the popular image of the toothless bogan Collingwood fan. btw, where can I get a .pdf of the "review"?
E & P&C: Are u really gonna tell me you believe his job was really truly on the line? Really? I knew he was staying the week before. Keeping him was one thing, surrounding it with horseshit was quite another. If we keep bowing to it they will keep doing it and you can NOT! build a culture around lies. Weren't you around in the 70's & then the '80s? That is what cost us flag after flag! That is why I've seen 11 losses & just 2 wins.
What we DO have is a great list. I would NOT trade it for anyones, not Adelaide, not GWS, not Richmond. What we DONT have is a game-day coach, and there is NO denying it! Ive been asking you blokes to show me otherwise for 4 years now, and not 1 SINGLE word! How the hell do we get 50 points up in the 3rd and then leave the 4 points behind? Because they changed their game and we couldn’t follow. This happened time after time. a Big lead tossed because the oppo know that if we are killing them - and we do it regularly - all they hafta do is change tack and we have no answer. He takes too long to see the trends, momentum, and mismatches, and then doesn't have the imagination or knowledge to counterattack. A couple of games were saved by the sheer guts & tenacity of guys like Pendles, Maynard, Greenwood, and Steelo. We have onfield leadership up the wazoo, but nothing in the box. If we had that we would have played finals at LEAST this year. We should be where Richmond are, and certainly where Essendrug are (I said last year that the player ban would put them back in finals within 2 years).
And no mate, there is no way future supporters will understand sticking with a coach who had failed worse each year for 6 years. A coach who needs at least 7 years to become competent, after taking over the Rolls Royce side of the AFL, should NEVER have gotten the job. I will never forgive or forget the Succession, and all the lies & bullshit surrounding it even if we win the next 5 flags - And if we had a gameday coach we could! Our list gets better each year. Not 1 side dominated us in 2017, we dominated several. We SHOULD have finished top 4. Are you telling me Richmond have a better side than us???? Go watch the 1st quarter against Sydney in Rd.2. Best quarter played by any side all year, not just the score, we were unbelievable! 30 metre passes slamming onto chests without getting over 6 feet. incredible precision & efficiency. Cool, calm, confident. and yeah, that last word... Confidence!
When we have it (which wasn’t very often) we are absolutely unbeatable. I'm not saying we could match Sydney, Hawthorn, and Adelaide ,Im saying we are a whole level above them! This is what you guys don't get! At our best we made the top teams look like a VFL squad.
We've HAD 6 years of heartache watching 4 finals series go by without us for just the second or third time in our 125 years, but this year was the killer, we set records all over the place, none of them good, (I think we passed our longest ever without even entering the top 4-5-6- when we should be EASILY top 4
I'll try to find a link to the Sydney game, but I can absolutely promise you that until we get another coach - or Buckley learns how to handle game-day, we will continue to fail when its completely unnecessary. Go look at the side Shaw had, compared to Figgy, or Matthews. We don't DESERVE to be 13th, so HOW do we get Buckley to learn the coaches game-day role? Is it possible? Shit I hope so, coz I just can't take another two years of this!
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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LeCras has re-signed at WCE. Might dampen this story.
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| 35forever wrote: | | E wrote: | | 35forever wrote: | I never got much on why or how we lost Marsh. Not delisted, not traded, just went home & gave it away at top level.The kid had all the tools, unfortunately he also had one coaching him. Its cost us several really smart young guys. Marsh could have been a gun, as Could Kyle Martin. That kid reminded me of Greening, he was agile, skilful, and kicked regular goals. His 3 gams in his first year were excellent and netted 6 goals or so. Then he was dropped because Buck's mate Dasher Young was fit again. Didn’t get another look until the following year. He played a game as a sub, came on well into the last, and that was it. No more. He won our 2s B&F but was so disgusted by his treatment that he chucked the game completely and went back to the VFL. Just 2 of the kids who couldn’t stay under Suckley. There will be more.
Anyone fool enough to believe a player tells the media the truth about his coach really needs a long hard think, especially in a Dictatorship. What do you think would happen? Much like a North Korean telling CNN that KJU is a stupid fat nut-job.
Fortunately Faz is one of Buckley's pets so we should get to keep him. God help any kid who isn't, Keefe is an example, payed great games in the twos most weeks but never got a shot. He was also among our best in the first pre-season game, but was it. We could use him. White too was showing good form in the twos, but chucked it in last week because he knows he's not getting any more games under Buckley. I hope he likes Marty Hoare.
2018 will simply be a matter of how well our boys can go without a coach, as we've decided not to bother with one. My hope is that Pendles takes on more "on-field coaching". He & Steelo could run the game with no one in the box, and we'd win 19 games.
I think Faz will have his best year in 2018, he did it this year despite missing several games, passing 200 points for the first time in his career. He's one of the best goal sneaks in the game, and worked harder than I've ever seen him work in the second half of the year. |
i find it very amusing when coaches are blamed for a player failing to make it. If the player went on to have a stellar career at another club, MAYBE i would support the view, but as far as i can tell neither Martin nor Marsh look like AFL players.
Just because you happen to like the potential of a player, doesn't mean the coach did something wrong because your view was naive!!!
Of greater interest, i have watched Buckley bring the best out of numerous players that other clubs had otherwise given up on. Lyndon Dunn, Travis Varcoe, Will Hoskin Elliot, Jack Crisp to name but a few. No doubt Buckley has done something wrong with those guys too.
And just to pre-empt the haters likely response to this, if Lyndon Dunn wasnt good enough to get a game at Melbourne and yet he is our best key defensive player, doesnt it tell you something about the relative list strengths at Melbourne and Collingwood. And if our list isn't as good as Melbourne's, then isn't it great how competitive Buckley has made the pies despite this fact.
ONe of these days, Collingwood fans will accept two years of bottom dwelling so that we can recruit the best players in the country to Collingwood! Until then, we continue to do our best with limitations on the assets we have at our disposal. one of those assets is the great man, Nathan Buckley. It would be nice to acknowledge that once in a while. |
Oh my GOD!
Okay, firstly, I didn't say Buckley got rid of Marsh, I said I "Didn’t know" why he left! But fine, lets have a think about how many "mysterious" departures we've had under Bucks... People like Dane Beams, and Harry O, so many "It’s a family thing" exits. Didn’t get that under previous coach.
Actually I believe that since 2014 the Buckley regime has been extremely good at developing young players, and getting the best out of imports: Grundy, Maynard, Crisp, JdG, Darcy, Cox, Smith, Phillips, WHE, Ramma, Shaz, Crocker, Wills, and yes, Dunn, Howe, & Varcs. He started really badly with the likes of Dasher Young, Jordy Russell, & Q-stick, but got much, much better. I would have all the above (first list) in our best 22. I've said this several times, 7 I'd happily keep him on as a dev coach, but his giant ego wouldn’t allow it, would it? My only problem is the way it gets very obvious who his faves are, and who has fallen away. Clearly Smith, Ramma, and others including Kyle Martin (oh, btw, there have been articles about how well Martin & Marsh have gone at the lower level, both said they didn't want to play at AFL level, and I believe both fell out of Figgy's "fave" list)
But what I really hate is the lying, bullshit, and "no explanation" we keep getting. They really do think we're as stupid as the popular image of the toothless bogan Collingwood fan. btw, where can I get a .pdf of the "review"?
E & P&C: Are u really gonna tell me you believe his job was really truly on the line? Really? I knew he was staying the week before. Keeping him was one thing, surrounding it with horseshit was quite another. If we keep bowing to it they will keep doing it and you can NOT! build a culture around lies. Weren't you around in the 70's & then the '80s? That is what cost us flag after flag! That is why I've seen 11 losses & just 2 wins.
What we DO have is a great list. I would NOT trade it for anyones, not Adelaide, not GWS, not Richmond. What we DONT have is a game-day coach, and there is NO denying it! Ive been asking you blokes to show me otherwise for 4 years now, and not 1 SINGLE word! How the hell do we get 50 points up in the 3rd and then leave the 4 points behind? Because they changed their game and we couldn’t follow. This happened time after time. a Big lead tossed because the oppo know that if we are killing them - and we do it regularly - all they hafta do is change tack and we have no answer. He takes too long to see the trends, momentum, and mismatches, and then doesn't have the imagination or knowledge to counterattack. A couple of games were saved by the sheer guts & tenacity of guys like Pendles, Maynard, Greenwood, and Steelo. We have onfield leadership up the wazoo, but nothing in the box. If we had that we would have played finals at LEAST this year. We should be where Richmond are, and certainly where Essendrug are (I said last year that the player ban would put them back in finals within 2 years).
And no mate, there is no way future supporters will understand sticking with a coach who had failed worse each year for 6 years. A coach who needs at least 7 years to become competent, after taking over the Rolls Royce side of the AFL, should NEVER have gotten the job. I will never forgive or forget the Succession, and all the lies & bullshit surrounding it even if we win the next 5 flags - And if we had a gameday coach we could! Our list gets better each year. Not 1 side dominated us in 2017, we dominated several. We SHOULD have finished top 4. Are you telling me Richmond have a better side than us???? Go watch the 1st quarter against Sydney in Rd.2. Best quarter played by any side all year, not just the score, we were unbelievable! 30 metre passes slamming onto chests without getting over 6 feet. incredible precision & efficiency. Cool, calm, confident. and yeah, that last word... Confidence!
When we have it (which wasn’t very often) we are absolutely unbeatable. I'm not saying we could match Sydney, Hawthorn, and Adelaide ,Im saying we are a whole level above them! This is what you guys don't get! At our best we made the top teams look like a VFL squad.
We've HAD 6 years of heartache watching 4 finals series go by without us for just the second or third time in our 125 years, but this year was the killer, we set records all over the place, none of them good, (I think we passed our longest ever without even entering the top 4-5-6- when we should be EASILY top 4
I'll try to find a link to the Sydney game, but I can absolutely promise you that until we get another coach - or Buckley learns how to handle game-day, we will continue to fail when its completely unnecessary. Go look at the side Shaw had, compared to Figgy, or Matthews. We don't DESERVE to be 13th, so HOW do we get Buckley to learn the coaches game-day role? Is it possible? Shit I hope so, coz I just can't take another two years of this! |
With all due respect, the Crows will probably hoist the flag, to get fifty points up on them, and then get a draw, was pretty bloody good, lets face it,we are a very young team still, yes, we have a very promising list, very promising, but its not yet in the class of a top four side, not until we get a top young KPP Forward, via the coming draft, and possibly this Lever guy, to shore up our other wise good backs. Look, I was around in those eras of losing GFs, I wept tears of blood after the 1970 and 79 GF debacles. You could argue, that when the bluescum started that amazing comeback in the 70 GF that our much vaunted THEN coach, Bob Rose, did not make the necessary changes to stop the charge, he basically did zilch, while Hopkins tore us to pieces. In 77, should we blame Hafey for the North comeback in the draw, we were five goals up at three qtr time, for chrissakes, what moves did he make,if any ?? You can bag Bucks till the cows come home, he has never had a fully fit list, at least three of his seasons were destroyed by mass injuries, I recall one game, we had so many injured, we had to recall a guy who had played VFL that same afternoon, to play again that night, against the Lions, that's how buggered we were. I think you read far too much into coaches anyway, they all make mistakes, look at Longmire, his coaching v the cats last week was friggin shocking, worst I have seen, and many critics slammed him, for a long, long time. Bucks has had his misses with some players, but he has brought out the best in others, as E said, guys like Dunne, Maynard, Degoey, Howe, now Howe has been sensational, and Bucks has brought out the best in him, and others, you sell him far too short. He was on very thin ice, jack the blind miner could see it, had we lost the last four games, badly, he may have gone, IF Clarkson and Lonmire had been available, but they weren't, and really, who wants an utried assist, there weren't any around really, who were any good. Those last few games by the Pies, showed me and many others, he definitely has the players onside, give us a good run with injuries, for once, and I can definitely see finals next season. Just remember, twelve months ago, the tigers were on the verge of sacking Hardwick, their fans were going apeshit to sack him, and the Board, and look what happened, one step away from a GF, he turned it right around, whose to say Bucks cant do that ?? Things can change very fast in footy, look at the dogs, chocolates to boiled lollies in one season, do we now say that Bevo is a lousy coach ?? Leigh Matthews said it takes a coach at least five seasons just to learn the caper, although not in wins, I do believe Bucks did improve this season, especially towards the end, we drew the crows, likely premiers, should have beaten the cats again, and beat the very confident deeees, in a desperate game, see how it goes next season, I'm confident, and I reckon we will play finals, if not, then talk the talk. 
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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winpies 
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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^ Direct swap for josh Kennedy then, we can live with that !!
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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woodys_world69
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Brisbane
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| darling? for faz? |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| woodys_world69 wrote: | | darling? for faz? |
How about we just take a draft pick. Apart from Natanui and Kennedy, they have no-one worth Collingwood trading for. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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An interesting point I've seen mentioned: when Fas missed games for depression this year, he did not return to WA. Seems to go against a desire to move home.
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| I think it's up to Fas to decide if he wants to go home and then us to work out a deal with Westcoast that mutually benefits both clubs. Fasolo's health is everything and all else is secondary. If he's happy at Westcoast then I wish him well and hope he plays some good footy along side Kennedy. A second round draft seems more than reasonable to me and anyone watching the TAC final last night could envisage more than adequate replacements for him playing out there. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | woodys_world69 wrote: | | darling? for faz? |
How about we just take a draft pick. Apart from Natanui and Kennedy, they have no-one worth Collingwood trading for. |
Spot on!
How good would it be to have Kennedy in our forward 50?!
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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BBHS
bbhs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Bellarine
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| Fas wants to stay according to the Sun |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| BBHS wrote: | | Fas wants to stay according to the Sun |
Glad to hear it. He's a good player, whose best is yet to come. |
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piedys 
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | BBHS wrote: | | Fas wants to stay according to the Sun |
Glad to hear it. He's a good player, whose best is yet to come. |
Providing he's happy in Melbourne, and NOT homesick for Perth, then good.
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M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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Without putting in the quote (which takes up about two phone screens in true 35Forever style) I think you might get over the succession plan if we win the next 5 flags champ 🙄
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