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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:23 pm
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
If I were transphobic, I would be too.

Sorry, but why else would you feel cheated in that scenario? Surely, only if you felt like trans women were impostors who didn't belong in the game to begin with, and that strikes me as the very perception we should be fighting against.

stui magpie wrote:
OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?


My guess is that the idea of gender-segregated sporting codes originated in a time when it was taken for granted that men and women were considered fundamentally different and existed in their own worlds – educational institutions in the past were more often single-sex, workplaces were rarely mixed, job positions had different titles depending on gender (waiter/waitress) and it was considered the norm to recognise achievements separately (consider, for example, the fact that we even to this day still have a Best Actor and Best Actress Academy Award!). The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as passé is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.

This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete – and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion.


firstly, his comment does not in any way indicate he is Transphobic. the reason im participating in this thread at all is because there has been no name calling, unlike last time, it has been a safe place for honest discussion. Apart from one poster, i cant see where anyone else has degraded Transgenders.

this thread isnt about legal, its about fair.

secondly, dream on!! you have no idea! Do you really think women are considered, or treated as equals in everyday life in any situation? winning best actress is no lesser achievement than winning best actor! Serena Williams achievements are no lesser than any male tennis players, they are just different. there is nothing wrong with being different. it would be nice if women were treated equally, i mean REALLY treated equally in everyday life, not just on paper! but thats a fair way off!

there may be nowhere else to compete, but why should athletes born female be disadvantaged?


I'm not sure how any of that relates to my post. I wasn't implying that sts was transphobic, but that the female players in his hypothetical would have to hold transphobic views in order to be 'pissed off' about losing a marquee spot to a trans woman.

As for the next paragraph, I'm really all at sea there. I'm not sure where I asserted that Serena Williams' achievements were inferior to those of male tennis players, or that 'Best Actress' was an inferior award. Are you saying that Serena Williams would still be a champion of the game if women's and men's tennis only existed as a single competition? If so, aren't you totally undermining your own point?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:22 pm
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I'm saying that Sabrina is one of the greatest female tennis players of all time, if not the greatest. She herself said she cant compete against men. I don't know how to break it to you david, but men and women are different, always were, always will be. Not inferior, just different. Different strengths and weaknesses. Men are physically able to be more powerful, stronger, faster, and agile, and more importantly, all four at once. Women are strong in a different way. And physically they will never, as a majority, be able to compete athletically with men, and nor should they have to.

So if one day your competing for a literary prize and get beaten out by someone who has virtually copied someone else's work, will you complain? Why? It's still a better article.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:00 pm
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think positive wrote:
So if one day your competing for a literary prize and get beaten out by someone who has virtually copied someone else's work, will you complain? Why? It's still a better article.


Again, it's just not a fair comparison. You're equating someone who's transgender with a cheat.

Men and women are different; so are people. Jarryd Blair has a totally different size, physique and skill set to Travis Cloke. Do they still have more in common with each other physically than they do with Serena Williams? Yes, quite possibly. But who's to say how much diversity in capability is too much? If Hannah lines up for the AFLW in 2018, I bet you she will lose marking contests, get pinged for holding the ball and play in winning and losing teams. I hope she gets to experience her dream, and I hope that she proves some of the more ridiculous predictions in this thread wrong along the way. Let's wait and see what happens.

stui magpie wrote:
That may say a lot about your circle of friends. Razz


This is quite plausible.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:51 pm
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OK, let's unpack your argument.

mason Cox and Blair aren't competing against each other for the same role, they're competing against other men who have similar physical attributes.

A transgender female is competing for a spot against females with similar attributes but they have a physiological advantage based on their birth gender as TP articulated earlier.

Aussie rules is probably a poor case study due to the diversity of attributes that go to make up an AFL player. Weight lifting (as was discussed earlier) is a far more clear example. Under the current rules a woman could lift a world record for her weight class at the Olympics yet be beaten for the gold by a physiological male (albeit with advantage diluted by chemicals) who had trained as a weight lifter prior to transition. That doesn't sit right with me.

Apply the same to many athletic endeavours. Rowing, running,long jump, high jump etc where the historical records clearly show males perform better than females.

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thesoretoothsayer 



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:52 am
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Interesting way to find out if transwomen are actually physically-advantaged over ciswomen:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4891484/Fists-fly-politically-correct-rally.html
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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:47 am
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Well i hope they push this through to horse racing.
I'm sick of Novative having to carry 2kg more than the girl horses. Since he's gelded, doesn't that put him a little closer to being a transgender horsey?

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:57 am
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Female athletes crushed by 'women who were once men'




You’ve heard the expression, “Boys will be boys.” But what happens when a brawny boy wants to be one of the girls – fiercely competing with females in weightlifting, brutally tackling girls on the football field or even dealing powerful knockout punches to ladies in a mixed martial-arts cage?

It’s now happening across America and around the world.Biological males are joining women’s teams, smashing records and dominating in sports such as weightlifting, softball, cycling, track, wrestling, football, volleyball, dodgeball, handball, cricket, golf, basketball and mixed martial arts.

The insanity of this affects not just the transgendered individual and the women athletes thus victimized,” he said. “It also contributes to a sort of mass delusion infecting our whole society in which, thanks to the influence of the powerful LGBT movement, everybody now has to either affirm the absurd and crazy – that a man who is essentially a female impersonator can fairly compete against women – or they have to suffer abuse and persecution as bigots just for speaking the truth.”

Kupelian said these “grotesquely unfair matchups” between female athletes and powerful men who identify as women is just one more unfortunate aspect of a revolutionary movement sweeping the nation.



Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2017/03/female-athletes-crushed-by-women-who-were-once-men/#4WBeMyYfoY5cc5gp.99

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:20 am
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I must have an unusually masochistic streak this morning because I actually clicked through to the article from that scummy website and found this as one of their examples of political correctness gone mad:

Quote:
Wrestling: Transgender wins high-school girls tournament

Mack Beggs, 17, was born a girl and reportedly began identifying as a boy at the age of 3. Though Beggs underwent testosterone treatments for more than a year and had the muscle mass of a teenage boy, Beggs competed and took first place in the University Interscholastic League state girls’ championship on Feb. 25, 2016.

“If he has been taking hormones, or steroids, he should be wrestling boys,” youth counselor Melissa Roush told CNN.


Think about that one for a moment: it's unfair for a transgender boy (born female) to compete with girls because his hormone replacement therapy treatments have apparently given him an advantage; but a transgender woman who has also been through hormone replacement therapy treatments (having, presumably, the opposite effect) is considered to be just another 'man' competing against women. Seems trans people can't win either way.

(Also note how this is the only example in the article where they avoid misgendering – because it might undermine their argument if they referred to this boy as 'she'.)

I suspect the end goal of the kind of people who write articles like this is not really about sporting integrity. It's about making transgender people disappear from public life altogether.

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:58 am
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At least the Queensland AWFL have some common sense....

Transgender Policy
The legislations which apply to this policy are contained in the Commonwealth legislation entitled, ‘Sex Discrimination Act 1984’ and ‘Queensland Anti-Discrimination Act 1991’.
The regulation is that, whether or not a person is a recognised transgender person (that is, whether or not the person has altered their genitals or gender characteristics so that the person will be identified as a person of the opposite sex), it is not unlawful to prevent such a person playing in a competition which is only available to persons of the opposite sex and where the strength, stamina or physique of the person is relevant to participation in the activity.
There is little doubt that a transgender female would have a significant performance advantage in playing football as a result of previously being a male.
To be eligible to play in the AFL Queensland Women’s competition the player must be female, which would not include a gender re-assigned person.

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:15 am
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David wrote:
I must have an unusually masochistic streak this morning because I actually clicked through to the article from that scummy website and found this as one of their examples of political correctness gone mad:

Quote:
Wrestling: Transgender wins high-school girls tournament

Mack Beggs, 17, was born a girl and reportedly began identifying as a boy at the age of 3. Though Beggs underwent testosterone treatments for more than a year and had the muscle mass of a teenage boy, Beggs competed and took first place in the University Interscholastic League state girls’ championship on Feb. 25, 2016.

“If he has been taking hormones, or steroids, he should be wrestling boys,” youth counselor Melissa Roush told CNN.


Think about that one for a moment: it's unfair for a transgender boy (born female) to compete with girls because his hormone replacement therapy treatments have apparently given him an advantage; but a transgender woman who has also been through hormone replacement therapy treatments (having, presumably, the opposite effect) is considered to be just another 'man' competing against women. Seems trans people can't win either way.

(Also note how this is the only example in the article where they avoid misgendering – because it might undermine their argument if they referred to this boy as 'she'.)

I suspect the end goal of the kind of people who write articles like this is not really about sporting integrity. It's about making transgender people disappear from public life altogether.


You say that... then totally discard what the women competitors had to say in the article;



Weightlifter Deborah Acason, from the Australian Weightlifting Federation, told 1 News Now she’s concerned about the fairness of Hubbard competing in the women’s division.

“We all deserve to be on an even playing field,” Acason said. “It’s difficult when you believe that you’re not. If it’s not even, why are we doing the sport?”


Eagle River junior Peyton Young, also a runner, said: “I don’t know what’s politically correct to say, but in my opinion, your gender is what you’re born with. It’s the DNA. Genetically, a guy has more muscle mass than a girl, and if he’s racing against a girl, he may have an advantage.”



“If he has been taking hormones, or steroids, he should be wrestling boys,” youth counselor Melissa Roush told CNN.

Dr. Brandon Mines, assistant professor at Emory University’s Department of Orthopedics, agreed with Roush’s statement.

“Testosterone and anabolic steroids are in the same family and have the effect of increasing muscle mass and strength gains,” Mines told CNN.





Brents told WHOA-TV, “I’ve never felt so overpowered in my life.”

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night,” she said. “I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor. I can only say I’ve never felt so overpowered in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right.”

Brents said Fox’s “grip was different.”

“I could usually move around in the clinch against … females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch



Just have a look at the pic on the following sport Rolling Eyes

Gabrielle Ludwig, 50, who was born Robert, joined the women’s basketball team at Mission College in Santa Clara, California, in 2012.

Ludwig is 6 feet, 6 inches tall and weighs 220 pounds.

On Nov. 30, 2012, a judge awarded Ludwig a new birth certificate designating him a “female.”




McGregor said he no longer produces testosterone and has high levels of estrogen.

“I know there might be some out there who would say, ‘That’s just an old bloke in a dress,’ but I would argue that any physical advantages I may have had as a born male are offset by my age and the changes to my body,” McGregor said.

Ohhh, so coz you're old your physical dominance has waned, to a now acceptable level, to belt girls around the park Rolling Eyes



Handball Australia ruled that he couldn’t join the women’s team in a tournament. The official reason was that he hadn’t completed a full year of hormone treatment. But sources told the paper that Mouncey’s six-foot-two-inch stature posed a big problem.

“She’s still a 6-foot, 2-inch female and is still 100kg [220 pounds] or so and larger than everyone else with a physical advantage and a certain level of muscle mass … we have to protect the other players,” the source told the Telegraph.

“It would not be an issue six months down the line as she will have met IOC guidelines, but the fact Hannah was three weeks out of the 12-month IOC guideline, and no one had dealt with a transgender player in a contact sport before, meant no precedent was set. No one was prepared to break the rules.”

Board members reportedly feared they would not be insured if Mouncey injured a female player.

“Being able to play as a woman for the first time after transitioning would have meant feeling normal again,” Mouncey told the Telegraph. “In six months, I’ll still be 6 foot 2 inches and big, and nothing will have changed. Anyone who thinks I have an unfair advantage is wrong. Being tall means I have extra weight to carry and can’t run as fast as the girls.”

That must be why Bolt is so fast hey, he's only ...... huh? 6'5" Laughing




Transgender pro-golfer Mianne Bagger

In 2004, pro-golfer Mianne Bagger, born a male, became the first transgender woman to play in a professional golf tournament.

“That was huge,” Bagger told ABC News correspondent Jay Schadler of her chance to play in the 2004 Women’s Australian Open. “It’s like I get there and I’m on the course side of the ropes. I’m here. I’m playing. It was like, wow!”

Bagger claims his physical advantages from being born male are now gone, since he took female hormones.

“The physical changes are, you lose muscle mass and testosterone,” Bagger said.

“You lose overall strength. … I certainly wouldn’t be out there playing if I felt I had an unfair advantage.”

No, no..... of course you wouldn't Confused

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Wokko Pisces

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:36 am
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It's difficult enough to get girls into sport these days, take it to the bank that having transgender athletes competing as women will chase even more away.

You can frame your arguments however you like, in the end it's just facile debate point scoring to push an agenda. A eunuch is not a woman, and you can dance around the issue to pander to people's feelings as much as you like.

Live and let live and all that, but not at the expense of others. I'm with Greer and the RadFems on this one (never thought I'd ever be saying those words).

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:06 pm
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Wokko wrote:




Live and let live and all that, but not at the expense of others.


i agree with your whole post, but this line is the one that really relates to the thread completely in my opinion.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:32 pm
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But (effectively) banning transgender people from competing in sport does come at a cost – and one that I think is ultimately far greater than the cost to cis women who have to share their competitions with the odd trans woman (who may or may not be a difficult opponent). That's not semantics, it's about real-world consequences. Same goes for toilets and change rooms: so long as parts of the world remain gender segregated, forcing transgender people into categories to which they no longer legally or psychologically belong is wrong, and ends up potentially giving them no place at all to be.
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thesoretoothsayer 



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:47 pm
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Quote:
and one that I think is ultimately far greater than the cost to cis women


"As a man, let me quantify how much this impacts upon women"
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:18 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
and one that I think is ultimately far greater than the cost to cis women


"As a man, let me quantify how much this impacts upon women"


yup!!

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