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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:05 pm
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At no point have I said that a transgender woman couldn't have a physical advantage over cis women. In many cases, they will have a physical advantage. All I've even arguing is that physical advantages and disadvantages in competitive sport are something we already accept and are not inherently unfair.

Even if you could conclusively demonstrate that a given transgender woman (or even all transgender women) playing AFLW would be stronger than any cis woman ever, I don't see how that would make that point invalid. It would simply mean that the overall spectrum of physical ability in women's sport had broadened.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:16 pm
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But, I repeat agin, your argument that physical differences within a gender are comparable to the physical differences between the genders is fundamentally flawed.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:22 pm
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How so? Only because the differences are bigger? And if so, at what point does a physical advantage become so much greater that it is no longer tolerable in a contact sport?
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:36 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
No. Try reading my arguments.

A male who transitions to a female has a physical advantage for one. If you transitioned, you're chances of being a top line AFLW player would be slim to none as you have close to zero talent.

However, a male athlete who has competed as an adult man against other adult men to then transition and play against women, if that person doesn't have a physical advantage I'll go she.

Find me a single athletic sport/competition where the best woman is better than then best man. There aren't any. It's not an equal playing field, but if the relevant bodies are OK with it, that's fine with me.


Agree with all but I'm not ok with it. As a female if I'm best in the world except for a man who has had a sex change damn right I'd campaign and protest against it. A transgender is a person who feels they are in the wrong body. You can have surgery and take drugs to make adjustments to accomodate the mental state, but it's still fundamentally the body you were born with.

So I guess in answer to your earlier question I will bravely answer no, I don't consider them to be women in the real sense of the word because genetically, physically, physiologically they are not.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:40 pm
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Pa Marmo wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
My problem with your argument is that it's about physical diversity within a gender, doesn't address the physiological differences between men and women and I therefore deem it irrelevant, misinformed and generally nonsensical.

You have been posting the same argument since page 1, it hasn't got any better. It's still shit.


In lieu of a like button I had to quote this post, I love it.......lots.


I concur,

and my arguement and opinion hasn't changed either, cheers

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stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:41 pm
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Short answer is it's not my call, the sporting body has put their rules in around testosterone levels.

Longer answer, it's not about being no longer tolerable, it's basically the same argument against PED's.

even with the chemically induced testosterone deficiency, you have a physiological male competing against females.

yes, within a gender you have massive physical variances but we don't ask mason Cox to play rover against short fast munckins and we don't ask fasolo to plat FF against a key back.......ehhhh, that last point might need rethinking but you get my gist.

How would you feel if in 10 years time the AFLW or the Australian womens cricket team is dominated by transgender people? Should there be a separate competition for transgenders or do you just tell all the women who can't get in to suck it up?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:45 pm
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Where are those big hands clapping!
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HAL 

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:48 pm
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In the Universe we know.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:55 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Short answer is it's not my call, the sporting body has put their rules in around testosterone levels.

Longer answer, it's not about being no longer tolerable, it's basically the same argument against PED's.

even with the chemically induced testosterone deficiency, you have a physiological male competing against females.

yes, within a gender you have massive physical variances but we don't ask mason Cox to play rover against short fast munckins and we don't ask fasolo to plat FF against a key back.......ehhhh, that last point might need rethinking but you get my gist.

How would you feel if in 10 years time the AFLW or the Australian womens cricket team is dominated by transgender people? Should there be a separate competition for transgenders or do you just tell all the women who can't get in to suck it up?


I think that's an unlikely scenario because a) transgender people make up a tiny percentage of the population and b) of the few transgender women who are actually interested in playing football and good enough to make the cut, only a few would actually be in the top tier for strength and size compared to other women. If I got a sex change tomorrow, I would not exactly be dominating the AFLW comp, would I?

But let's say this hypothetical does come true. You know what it sounds like? "Imagine if, one day, American basketball is dominated by black men". Or, "imagine if one day long-distance running is dominated by Kenyans". Do you just tell all the white basketballers and long-distance runners who don't make the cut to suck it up? Should Africans have their own competition? Ultimately, I don't see how this is fundamentally different.

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swoop42 Virgo

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:26 am
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That full forward for Adelaide is a pretty big unit.

I'd get my arse kicked if I took on some 198cm female basketball player and I tell you I'd have been a far better sportsmen if I had the advantage of height like some of my less talented but much taller opponents.

The reality is people are advantaged or disadvantaged all the time because of physical differences and even at elite levels people like Michael Phelps are even more successful potentially because they have abnormally long arms and increased joint flexibility over rivals while Serena Williams is far stronger than most of her female opponents and simply hits the ball harder and for longer during rallies.

If this person ticks all the boxes that allows them to compete as a transgender woman then who am I to try and stop them.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:19 am
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David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Short answer is it's not my call, the sporting body has put their rules in around testosterone levels.

Longer answer, it's not about being no longer tolerable, it's basically the same argument against PED's.

even with the chemically induced testosterone deficiency, you have a physiological male competing against females.

yes, within a gender you have massive physical variances but we don't ask mason Cox to play rover against short fast munckins and we don't ask fasolo to plat FF against a key back.......ehhhh, that last point might need rethinking but you get my gist.

How would you feel if in 10 years time the AFLW or the Australian womens cricket team is dominated by transgender people? Should there be a separate competition for transgenders or do you just tell all the women who can't get in to suck it up?


I think that's an unlikely scenario because a) transgender people make up a tiny percentage of the population and b) of the few transgender women who are actually interested in playing football and good enough to make the cut, only a few would actually be in the top tier for strength and size compared to other women. If I got a sex change tomorrow, I would not exactly be dominating the AFLW comp, would I?

But let's say this hypothetical does come true. You know what it sounds like? "Imagine if, one day, American basketball is dominated by black men". Or, "imagine if one day long-distance running is dominated by Kenyans". Do you just tell all the white basketballers and long-distance runners who don't make the cut to suck it up? Should Africans have their own competition? Ultimately, I don't see how this is fundamentally different.


OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:24 am
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Exactly!


From the big footy thread on the subject

"I absolutely disagree with the 12 month criteria. I am a post op transgender women prior to my gender surgery I had seven years of hormone replacement therapy. Whilst pre op I had to had to suspend my hormone regime a couple of times for medical reasons. I found my strength and endurance returned very quickly at these times."

Also, from that thread,
rfctiger74 said: ↑
Do you honestly think a man would go through gender reassignment surgery just to rort the aflw and the pittance they currently earn?

Reply
You dont have to have the surgery anymore. That is the change. And this wasnt just about the AFLW, its now the Olympic rule.

And I'd say people have gone to all sorts of insane lengths to win Olympic medals.



Seriously? You don't have to have the surgery?

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thesoretoothsayer 



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:14 am
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There are only a small number (16?) of marquee player postions available in the AFLW.
If I was a woman dreaming of becoming a semi-professional AFL player, I'd be pissed off if one of these marquee spots went to someone who was a man a couple of years beforehand.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:40 am
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If I were transphobic, I would be too.

Sorry, but why else would you feel cheated in that scenario? Surely, only if you felt like trans women were impostors who didn't belong in the game to begin with, and that strikes me as the very perception we should be fighting against.

stui magpie wrote:
OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?


My guess is that the idea of gender-segregated sporting codes originated in a time when it was taken for granted that men and women were considered fundamentally different and existed in their own worlds educational institutions in the past were more often single-sex, workplaces were rarely mixed, job positions had different titles depending on gender (waiter/waitress) and it was considered the norm to recognise achievements separately (consider, for example, the fact that we even to this day still have a Best Actor and Best Actress Academy Award!). The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as pass is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.

This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion.

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Last edited by David on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:59 am
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David wrote:
If I were transphobic, I would be too.

Sorry, but why else would you feel cheated in that scenario? Surely, only if you felt like trans women were impostors who didn't belong in the game to begin with, and that strikes me as the very perception we should be fighting against.

stui magpie wrote:
OK. So why have separate competitions for men and women then?


My guess is that the idea of gender-segregated sporting codes originated in a time when it was taken for granted that men and women were considered fundamentally different and existed in their own worlds educational institutions in the past were more often single-sex, workplaces were rarely mixed, job positions had different titles depending on gender (waiter/waitress) and it was considered the norm to recognise achievements separately (consider, for example, the fact that we even to this day still have a Best Actor and Best Actress Academy Award!). The rationale for sporting competitions maintaining gender segregation when most other examples of gender segregation are now seen as pass is, I think, a practical one: the average man is stronger and faster than the average woman, and thus it's seen that, if competitions were mixed, women would be destined to forever be also-rans and therefore female participation and interest in sport would decline dramatically.

This rationale doesn't (or shouldn't) extend to excluding trans women for three reasons: one is that trans women will make up a tiny minority of elite female sportspeople and not the other way around, meaning that, despite all the hand-wringing in this thread, it's still perefectly possible for a cis woman to be a star in her field; secondly, that trans women are ordinarily on hormone treatments that will significantly reduce the gap in average strength and speed between them and cis women; and third, short of establishing a tiny (read: unviably small) league in each sporting code for trans sportswomen (which would also be offensive and discriminatory for reasons I've argued in the past), there is nowhere else for them to compete and, quite certainly in this case, inclusion causes far less harm than exclusion.


firstly, his comment does not in any way indicate he is Transphobic. the reason im participating in this thread at all is because there has been no name calling, unlike last time, it has been a safe place for honest discussion. Apart from one poster, i cant see where anyone else has degraded Transgenders.

this thread isnt about legal, its about fair.

secondly, dream on!! you have no idea! Do you really think women are considered, or treated as equals in everyday life in any situation? winning best actress is no lesser achievement than winning best actor! Serena Williams achievements are no lesser than any male tennis players, they are just different. there is nothing wrong with being different. it would be nice if women were treated equally, i mean REALLY treated equally in everyday life, not just on paper! but thats a fair way off!

there may be nowhere else to compete, but why should athletes born female be disadvantaged?

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