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Fair Work cut penalty rates on Sundays

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:15 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
It's not a socialist unless it is nice, apparently. The fact that it has nationalized the means of production, distribution and exchange, the fact that it has outlawed surplus value (aka profit) extraction by capitalists, the fact that it espouses the dictatorship of the proletariat, the fact that it was born out of a revolution by the proletariat, that it meets nearly all of these criteria laid down by .Marx in the Communist Manifesto... these things don't make it Marxist, or communist, they make it "state authoritarian"....

When I use a word, said Humpty Dumpty....


So North Korea is democratic go figure. Pure genius.

Thought not.

Next: Rolling Eyes

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:44 pm
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^ Whatever our differences on politics, WPT, that excerpt from Cocoanuts is majestic. I just watched it again. It never gets old. And I'm still grateful to you for Nichols and May. Fortunately there is more to life than politics.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:50 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
^ Whatever our differences on politics, WPT, that excerpt from Cocoanuts is majestic. I just watched it again. It never gets old. And I'm still grateful to you for Nichols and May. Fortunately there is more to life than politics.


May & Nichols please Wink

A reminder about the one that continues to crack me up no matter how many times I've seen it

(only 3 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7rL8xyo7A

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:05 pm
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^ excellent. It's easy to type LoL but I genuinely did laugh out loud at "he don't do nothin', he don't say nothin'..." bit

The first half is pretty good, too ! That song is still incredibly moving.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:56 am
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Apparently the new female pedestrian lights are being installed as a cost saving measure to coincide with cutting Penalty rates - they cost 30% less to run than the male lights and will be forced to work Sundays.
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partypie 



Joined: 01 Oct 2010


PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:51 am
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Culprit wrote:
Apparently the new female pedestrian lights are being installed as a cost saving measure to coincide with cutting Penalty rates - they cost 30% less to run than the male lights and will be forced to work Sundays.


Love it! It seems people who don't work on weekends think people who do shouldn't get penalty rates, and that all businesses, except theirs, should operate seven days a week. I worked near a business in a tourist area which closed on Sundays, and every Sunday some one would come in and complain that it was closed, often interupting me serving a genuine customer. The obvious solution is to put up the base hourly rate, which in those industries is pathetic.
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Pies4shaw Leo

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Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:45 am
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Here, of course, is the sting in the tail - business gets a boost but everyone else pays for the consequences:

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/penalty-rate-cuts-could-blow-650m-hole-in-federal-budget-australia-institute-20170326-gv6mnc.html

No "trickle down", no "net benefit", just a big black hole for the working people of Australia to throw their money into to help out poor, benighted retailers.
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:52 am
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partypie wrote:
Culprit wrote:
Apparently the new female pedestrian lights are being installed as a cost saving measure to coincide with cutting Penalty rates - they cost 30% less to run than the male lights and will be forced to work Sundays.


Love it! It seems people who don't work on weekends think people who do shouldn't get penalty rates, and that all businesses, except theirs, should operate seven days a week. I worked near a business in a tourist area which closed on Sundays, and every Sunday some one would come in and complain that it was closed, often interupting me serving a genuine customer. The obvious solution is to put up the base hourly rate, which in those industries is pathetic.


Exactly!

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:52 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Here, of course, is the sting in the tail - business gets a boost but everyone else pays for the consequences:

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/penalty-rate-cuts-could-blow-650m-hole-in-federal-budget-australia-institute-20170326-gv6mnc.html

No "trickle down", no "net benefit", just a big black hole for the working people of Australia to throw their money into to help out poor, benighted retailers.


That's a good read, ta

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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:54 pm
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partypie wrote:
Culprit wrote:
Apparently the new female pedestrian lights are being installed as a cost saving measure to coincide with cutting Penalty rates - they cost 30% less to run than the male lights and will be forced to work Sundays.


Love it! It seems people who don't work on weekends think people who do shouldn't get penalty rates, and that all businesses, except theirs, should operate seven days a week. I worked near a business in a tourist area which closed on Sundays, and every Sunday some one would come in and complain that it was closed, often interupting me serving a genuine customer. The obvious solution is to put up the base hourly rate, which in those industries is pathetic.


OK, I'll try again.

Penalty rates have historic roots in the days when work was 9-5 Monday to Friday and nothing happened on weekends.

Penalty rates were designed to compensate employees for working unsociable hours, outside the then norm. Weekends, evenings, nights.

The fair Work Commission, in reviewing penalty rates, made the decision that the historic reasons for Sunday rates being higher than Saturday rates no longer applied sufficiently to justify the difference and so reduced Sunday rates in a couple of Awards, which is likely to flow through to others.

I don't think any fair minded person would argue that Sunday still holds the same significance that it did 50 years ago, so therefore the decision was justified.

We then move to the consequence of that decision, being that some people lose money in their take home pay. that's a different discussion and your point about reviewing the base rate is a fair and reasonable one. It does get reviewed annually by FWA already as part of the minimum wage review and recent increases have been more than the average EBA increases, but they're still low paid jobs no doubt.

The thing with looking to raise those rates is that it has flow on consequences.
Firstly businesses won't absorb those increases, it will pass the costs on which means increased prices to consumers.

Secondly, if you increase wages for one group, relativity kicks in and you then need to increase others to maintain that.

Increased wages, increased costs, zero sum game, back to the drawing board.

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Pies4shaw Leo

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:59 pm
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It actually isn't a zero sum game: if penalty rates drop, the rest of us pay for it in a reduction of the tax base. So, it isn't actually a "private" fight between the worker and the employer. Rather, the employer gets a subsidy at everyone's cost.
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:12 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
It actually isn't a zero sum game: if penalty rates drop, the rest of us pay for it in a reduction of the tax base. So, it isn't actually a "private" fight between the worker and the employer. Rather, the employer gets a subsidy at everyone's cost.


Maybe. I'd need to see some data to support that.

With the tax free threshold sitting at $18k pa and the next rate of 19% going up to $37k pa combined with the demographic of those who work regular Sundays for penalty rates, my intuitive conclusion is that it would have negligible impact to the tax base.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:15 am
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^ all the data in the world won't cover the sleight of hand that calls the remission of taxes a "subsidy" to the citizenry.

Apparently it's the government's money, not yours, and when they are not taking it from you, that's a "subsidy" they're giving you. If the government did not work so hard for you, how could you plebs live your heavily-subsidised, miserable lives?

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:56 pm
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^

there has to be a better way than taxation.

It's a hangover from the past and no one has yet come up with a better alternative.

it's used to fund government spending, to discourage consumption, to penalise high earners, it's stuffed. There has to be a better way.

And no, socialism isn't better way.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:18 pm
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^I have a lot of sympathy with the idea of taxing land rather than income, though this is definitely something that would need a lot of careful policy thinking, and probably need to be effected over many years. Some greater room for wealth taxes is also worth considering.

While land taxes seem to me a sensible idea, based on the great (untaxed) added value that government services bring to landowners, non-land financial wealth can move around easily to places where it is not taxed. Indeed, punitive wealth tax, and the capital and high-income flight it provoked, was one of the key reasons for Britain's precipitous post-1945 decline (though there were others). Still, taxing income so heavily relative to other forms of economic gain has a range of very unhealthy effects, and a modest wealth tax is probably sustainable and worth considering. Indeed, I'd be keen to see our policy makers try to effect this on a multilateral basis across the developed economies.

Of course, I'd also rather have government just do less. Every time something unfortunate happens in some corner of life, and a politician comes on explaining how they have (or will) raise funding in that area - as though they are giving us a gift - my heart sinks.

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