Vale / in Memorium
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Doesn't make it ok, needless to say! But yeah, David Bowie is just one other who comes to mind who had sex with an underage girl. |
Bill Wyman
Jerry Lee Lewis
Sting wrote a song about it.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
or a gangster (Al Capone) |
David Bowie had sex with Al Capone? |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Did you read the facts ? What is it about the facts of the conviction that suggests it was not paedophilia to you ? |
We really do need to get the terminology on this right, Mugwump – paedophilia is a condition, not a crime, and in any case relates to attraction to prepubescent children. Having sex with a 14 year old is generally referred to as statutory rape, and someone who wished to do that would generally be referred to as a hebephile or ephebophile (though could just as easily be a regular heterosexual man acting unethically).
I think it's fair enough to bring stuff like this up, by the way, but it doesn't and shouldn't affect his legacy as a musician. |
Sorry for the terminology error, then. As you may recall, I have a lot of sympathy for paedophiles, who are afflicted with a horrible sickness. We should definitely treat this as a medical condition. I have less sympathy with a grown man who commits the various acts of which Berry was convicted over a long period.
The discussion was somewhat sidetracked by my need to justify what I wrote on that specific point. The real point is the way that things which would normally be condemned vigorously by the arbiters of modern morals are airbrushed away because those same people love rock'n'roll (one of our modern religions). There are many whose works are in better taste than their lives. My interest is in the double standard, and what it means.
Yes, he grew up poor and black in a very unjust America. But so did Muhammad Ali, Paul Robeson, Sammy Davis Jr, Nat King Cole, Muddy Waters, William "Count" Basie, and many others. They all had faults, like the rest of us, but I can admire every one of them for their work, their courage and their life. I can't feel that about Chuck Berry. The armed robbery and Mann Act thing can be explained away as youthful hot-headedness. But what sort of man makes non-consensual toilet videos in middle-age ? It's also interesting that flagrant tax evasion is apparently not a big issue if you are a rock'n'roll star, where it would be if someone was a politician or a business executive. |
No worries! I agree with a lot of what you write here, and was having a similar discussion on Facebook today about good old Roman Polanski. While I strongly believe in evaluating art and artistic oeuvres without regard for the creator's personal virtues, I also feel that we should be careful not to allow our admiration for an artist to minimise the unethical or illegal things they may have done. As you say, we too often engage in hero worship in this society and it can cloud our ability to recognise that these figures are human beings, with all the failings that entails.
Chuck Berry was a legendary rock musician, perhaps the greatest; he also seems to have been prone to committing unethical, sexually exploitative acts. We can and must accept both of these concepts at the same time. There is nothing inherently paradoxical here.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
or a gangster (Al Capone) |
David Bowie had sex with Al Capone? |
it was a threesome. Jagger was involved. Capone was never the same.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
No worries! I agree with a lot of what you write here, and was having a similar discussion on Facebook today about good old Roman Polanski. While I strongly believe in evaluating art and artistic oeuvres without regard for the creator's personal virtues, I also feel that we should be careful not to allow our admiration for an artist to minimise the unethical or illegal things they may have done. As you say, we too often engage in hero worship in this society and it can cloud our ability to recognise that these figures are human beings, with all the failings that entails.
Chuck Berry was a legendary rock musician, perhaps the greatest; he also seems to have been prone to committing unethical, sexually exploitative acts. We can and must accept both of these concepts at the same time. There is nothing inherently paradoxical here. |
^ Sure. Some of the artists and scientists I admire most were horrible human beings. Sir Isaac Newton, for instance, was a monster. So was Richard Wagner. The work and the life should be separable, and we should be able to carry these facts in mind.
What interests me is the way that people roar about (say) Sir Tim Hunt's rather silly wittering about women in science and he is forced to resign - and yet Chuck Berry's really sinister behaviour is airbrushed out of his obituaries.
I think this is because rock'n'roll gets such a free pass because it fits so comfortably with the libertarian assumptions of the elites of our age. Like everyone else, I like the rock music I like, and I can still play Berry's defining guitar licks - but I think it is overrated as a cultural commodity, and the stars of rock'n'roll are granted licence to behave and pontificate in ways that would not be tolerated in more serious areas. Still, at least Berry did not regale me with witless opinions on politics. And unlike John Lennon, the ne plus ultra of the type, he was not truly nasty to the people who were close to him. It takes a special kind of viciousness to do that.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Doesn't make it ok, needless to say! But yeah, David Bowie is just one other who comes to mind who had sex with an underage girl. |
No it doesn't
Bowie too huh?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
or a gangster (Al Capone) |
David Bowie had sex with Al Capone? |
it was a threesome. Jagger was involved. Capone was never the same. |
Neither was Jagger after Capone sent him a Valentine.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Cub Coda's biography from Allmusic.com includes the following:
'Of all the early breakthrough rock & roll artists, none is more important to the development of the music than Chuck Berry. He is its greatest songwriter, the main shaper of its instrumental voice, one of its greatest guitarists, and one of its greatest performers. Quite simply, without him there would be no Beatles, Rolling Stones, Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, nor a myriad others. There would be no standard "Chuck Berry guitar intro," the instrument's clarion call to get the joint rockin' in any setting. The clippety-clop rhythms of rockabilly would not have been mainstreamed into the now standard 4/4 rock & roll beat. There would be no obsessive wordplay by modern-day tunesmiths; in fact, the whole history (and artistic level) of rock & roll songwriting would have been much poorer without him. Like Brian Wilson said, he wrote "all of the great songs and came up with all the rock & roll beats." Those who do not claim him as a seminal influence or profess a liking for his music and showmanship show their ignorance of rock's development as well as his place as the music's first great creator. Elvis may have fueled rock & roll's imagery, but Chuck Berry was its heartbeat and original mindset.
... for all of his off-stage exploits and seemingly ongoing troubles with the law, Chuck Berry remains the epitome of rock & roll, and his music will endure long after his private escapades have faded from memory. Because when it comes down to his music, perhaps John Lennon said it best, "If you were going to give rock & roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." '
http://www.allmusic.com/artist/chuck-berry-mn0000120521/biography |
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Larabee
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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| Post subject: Vale Drew Morphett | |
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He passed away last night. I always thought he was a good AFL commentator, not that footy means anything when confronted with eternity.
Condolences to his wife and family.
"Commentator and long-time colleague Sandy Roberts paid tribute to his friend, who he described as “very professional, but also mischievous”. He was very versatile as a broadcaster,” Roberts said. I just loved him as a mate – he had a couple of standard sayings. He called a lot of Daicos goals and his catch-cry was “magnificent”.”
http://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/sports-broadcaster-drew-morphett-dies-aged-69/news-story/d45bb842983aedf36300944e185ee9fe
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Very sad, taken far too soon, great commentator. Vale.
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Captain_MyCaptain
Joined: 25 May 2006
Location: home
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A really good bloke. Sad loss to us all.
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The window is open my friend! |
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ANNODAM
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Eltham, VIC.
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Fkn hell, only 69 too!
Just like that, he wasn't even ill.
RIP Drew.
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WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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(Cross-posted from the VPT thread.)
Oh no! The best caller in the game - not just footy, practically any game. Drew was the master.
Drew dreamed about calling sport even as a little boy growing up in Sydney. It was all he ever wanted to do. One day, still only in his teens, he was one of a small group of youngsters who managed to get an interview with the ABC Sport Department, which took place at a Sydney footy ground some hours before the game. (Being Sydney, this was Rugby League of course.)
The interview went OK. Rather to their surprise, the boys were then invited to call a few minutes each of the no-account seconds game that happened to be on. Obviously, no-one knew any of the players or their numbers. that was OK, said the senior man, you haven't had a chance to study, just make something up or say "Number 3" or "the full-back".
When Drew's turn came along, he knew every player on both sides and called them accurately. Young Drew loved his sport and "just happened" to know every player in every team - first and seconds both - in the New South Wales Rugby League. So he ignored the instructions and called them all by name.
He got the job.
He was posted to Western Australia as a cadet, and thrown straight into calling the completely unfamiliar game of Aussie Rules. Took to it like a duck to water, and never looked back.
Even when he was right royally shafted by Tony Abbot's disgraceful "no cuts to the ABC" savage cuts and sacked, he took it in good spirit and finished his days at an inferior commercial broadcaster, never showing any trace of bitterness. He just went on calling sport in his inimitable way.
Go well Drew Morphett. Top bloke; best sport broadcaster of our generation. No-one else ever managed your unique blend of easy-going style, true-to-life accuracy, tremendous knowledge, understanding, and infectious good humour.
You will be sadly missed.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Very sad and sudden news.
Vale Drew Morphett
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MagpieBat
Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Location: Brooding in a cave... somewhere... maybe...
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