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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | I don't like authoritarian structures of this nature, no but it's not like I'm just making stuff up here. Think of what you have to do to a human being to make them accept killing someone else. Think of what you need to do to make that training effective. |
I'm thinking that's your personal frame of reference shining through there.
While you may find it an impossible conundrum, many others are able to rationalise it without needing to be brainwashed. It's not actually that hard, armed services around the world rely on volunteers to enlist, all of whom know when they apply that killing people in combat, or dying themselves, is part of the contract.
The world is full of different personality types. Don't judge them by your own standards.
| David wrote: | | I actually asked you a direct question about the prison system earlier that you ignored, so I could have said the same. |
What question did I ignore?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | I don't like authoritarian structures of this nature, no but it's not like I'm just making stuff up here. Think of what you have to do to a human being to make them accept killing someone else. Think of what you need to do to make that training effective. |
I think the impulse to kill someone else comes pretty naturally when that person is going to kill you, or they are threatening to occupy your land and enslave you. I think the real question is what type of training you would impose to suppress this ancient instinct in normal humans.
Military training, as far as I have observed it from a few visits to Sandhurst, is not particularly about training people to kill - that's just technical stuff about operating machines of various kinds. The "moral" training is about training people to survive, to deliver missions, and to follow orders - not least the order to desist from killing at the earliest opportunity, despite being a state of high adrenaline. The world is a complicated place.
Oh, and ref your first sentence, what "nature" of "authoritarian structures" do you like ?
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| David wrote: | | I don't like authoritarian structures of this nature, no but it's not like I'm just making stuff up here. Think of what you have to do to a human being to make them accept killing someone else. Think of what you need to do to make that training effective. |
Too narrow David!
Bear with me - think of what you have to do to a human being and what training will be effective enough to enable them to be able to accept turning off a life support machine, or pull a mangled body from a car, or a burnt body from a fire or a drowned child from a pool and or shoot another to protect the community or themselves then front up and do it again and again and again.
Why can those that have to do such things in their line of work do this - because at the end of the day the intention and motivation is to help and the training is aimed at allowing humans to understand motivation, to control emotions and impulse see and do these things and continue on - doesn't always work suicide, drug and alcohol issues, PTS, family breakdown etc etc etc.
This is also the case with veterans - the vast majority don't join up " to kill" they have a sense of duty and a desire to help - I think you greatly underestimate and undervalue that! I don't know about the septics but the Australian military have done some amazing work in rebuilding communities - research what they did in Timor just as one example.
And many especially Aussies are doing magnificent work around the world protecting animals - maybe that's a by-product - given up on humans??
Sometimes the training that is required for humans to do a job and be able to " cope" and still be functional has to be frank and well brutal ( not bullying that is not effective training) - what needs improvement is the identification and treatment of those who can't or don't cope with what they asked to do.
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βThe greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.β |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Both of you make good points. But I still think that, even if it's a necessary evil, the essential purpose of the military remains a barbaric one. Let's consider the famous 'justified war', for instance: for all that was at stake and the unavoidability of it all, I can't see what happened on the battlefields of World War 2 as noble, for instance it was sordid and dehumanising. My grandfather was one of the soldiers who fought for Australia in that war. He was not, as far as I could gather, proud of what he did or what he saw. Like many former soldiers, he just didn't want to talk about it.
I can respect the bravery of soldiers, but I cannot glorify the institution that they serve. When I refer to the military as a necessary evil, I mean that in the strongest sense of the phrase.
| Mugwump wrote: |
Oh, and ref your first sentence, what "nature" of "authoritarian structures" do you like ? |
Good question! I guess I am a big supporter of the legal system, which is, by its very nature, an authoritarian system. I'm also someone who likes the idea of government. But those are both civilising constructs what bothers me is closed-off hierarchical systems where power is more closely rooted in Darwinist principles. I'll grant you that armies may be less like that than they once were, but I still shudder at the idea of signing up to such an institution, even if no conflict would eventuate.
I probably should note that my younger brother is actively considering joining the army, so this is a subject that has given me some angst of late. I hope that it doesn't make him a harder, less empathetic person, but I fear that it will change him irrevocably, and not for the better.
(Stui, my earlier question was where you derive your perception of prison conditions.)
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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WTF is it with men and air conditioning? I hate AC. Turned it on to 2 about 3pm, just a nice breeze kinda thing, hubby comes home early, and I'm still booking flights. I'll cook tea soon I say., and keep tapping away. About 30 min later I'm shivering, I've had a touch of man flu all week so thought it was that. Went and got my dressing gown, but on the way back to my desk I noticed the thermostat- was now on 5! Ok well yeah he worked hard in a warehouse, he's probably hot, but where is he? Asleep in a chair-outside! It was like still 28 degrees out there, and I'm an ice cube! Just came up to bed, the windows open and the fans a fricken helicopter and the doona is pulled up to his chin! gh
And another thing; one of the flights I booked today I went back to pick the seats, and I can't find the booking. They have an Aussie toll free so I ring up. "Mam' he says, 'what's your husbands name?" Say what? "Um I booked it, my name was entered first, the card is in my name" . "Yes mam, but it defaults to your husbands name". WTF is this, 1950!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | Both of you make good points. But I still think that, even if it's a necessary evil, the essential purpose of the military remains a barbaric one. Let's consider the famous 'justified war', for instance: for all that was at stake and the unavoidability of it all, I can't see what happened on the battlefields of World War 2 as noble, for instance it was sordid and dehumanising. My grandfather was one of the soldiers who fought for Australia in that war. He was not, as far as I could gather, proud of what he did or what he saw. Like many former soldiers, he just didn't want to talk about it.
I can respect the bravery of soldiers, but I cannot glorify the institution that they serve. When I refer to the military as a necessary evil, I mean that in the strongest sense of the phrase.
| Mugwump wrote: |
Oh, and ref your first sentence, what "nature" of "authoritarian structures" do you like ? |
Good question! I guess I am a big supporter of the legal system, which is, by its very nature, an authoritarian system. I'm also someone who likes the idea of government. But those are both civilising constructs what bothers me is closed-off hierarchical systems where power is more closely rooted in Darwinist principles. I'll grant you that armies may be less like that than they once were, but I still shudder at the idea of signing up to such an institution, even if no conflict would eventuate.
I probably should note that my younger brother is actively considering joining the army, so this is a subject that has given me some angst of late. I hope that it doesn't make him a harder, less empathetic person, but I fear that it will change him irrevocably, and not for the better.
(Stui, my earlier question was where you derive your perception of prison conditions.) |
Make him a harder less emphatic person? The army isn't all apocalypse now! Get on line and watch some of the welcome home videos, or how about the videos of the soldiers who brought back stray dogs and cats with them? It takes heart and soul to walk into a fire fight to save someone, regardless if it's war, ambo's. The majority who join up do so to defend their country, their way of life, (except suicide bombers, they are just £$%$ed in the head).
If he joins up tell him from me, 'thankyou for your service". Yes, just like in those Facebook videos!
nobody wants to glorify war, but done deride the brave buggers that defend you.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Also, you've never really struck me as mr heart on his sleeve?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Thank him for me as well, if he does it. There are easier ways to make money, and it is a noble profession, serving in the army of a free people, defending civilised values against the despotism which is always active in this world. Like the police, they do the dirty work of defending us, so that we can pontificate about their work (inter alia) via the internet.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | | Also, you've never really struck me as mr heart on his sleeve? |
David? I assume he'd need a cardiac surgeon to put on cufflinks.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Oops wrong button!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Quote: | Sixty radioactive cow carcasses are buried beneath land in Werribee that the Andrews government is trying to sell to a Chinese consortium keen to build a $20-billion education precinct in Melbourne's west.
Documents obtained by Fairfax Media estimate the cost of cleaning up the radioactive waste could reach $300 million, with a further $770 million required to remove thousands more cow carcasses that are considered a biological hazard. Even conservative estimates put the cost of the clean up at $35 million. |
http://www.theage.com.au/business/a-sewage-farm-a-youth-detention-centre-now-meet-werribees-radioactive-cows-20170224-gul26r.html
OoooooKay then.  
So people out west, if you hear Mooing outside at night and the doors and windows rattling, do you reach for the baseball bat or the steak knife and condiments?
How do you kill a zombie cow?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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5150 
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Quote: | Sixty radioactive cow carcasses are buried beneath land in Werribee that the Andrews government is trying to sell to a Chinese consortium keen to build a $20-billion education precinct in Melbourne's west.
Documents obtained by Fairfax Media estimate the cost of cleaning up the radioactive waste could reach $300 million, with a further $770 million required to remove thousands more cow carcasses that are considered a biological hazard. Even conservative estimates put the cost of the clean up at $35 million. |
http://www.theage.com.au/business/a-sewage-farm-a-youth-detention-centre-now-meet-werribees-radioactive-cows-20170224-gul26r.html
OoooooKay then.
So people out west, if you hear Mooing outside at night and the doors and windows rattling, do you reach for the baseball bat or the steak knife and condiments?
How do you kill a zombie cow? |
I was wondering how they made those glow in the dark Footy's |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Hahahahahaha
So um why are/were the cows radioactive!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Trying to breed a new lot of super soldiers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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