Young people are the dumbest demograhic

[Mugwump]

[pietillidie]

^Mostly agreed except for that last aside! Probably the best recent-ish public lecture I've listened to on the topic:

http://www.uctv.tv/shows/Homo-Heuristicus-Rationality-for-Mortals-28733

The problem is heuristics themselves have to derive from somewhere, and that somewhere can simply be cast as the computational algorithm. Not to mention computation itself is full of "heuristics". So, it can end up a bit of a futile language game.

The key point is, as you say, that even in science everything is metaphor; that's how we roll. This is why I was bemused at the critiques of global warming by deniers, as if any advanced scientist actually thinks, literally, that the metaphor was an eternal representation of some external reality, or conversely there was actually some other "fact" out there empty of metaphorical content which would undo it. Of course, like any other idea global warming itself is a metaphor nested in a web of supporting metaphors; the relevant point is how useful a metaphor it is, and that depends on a range of things, such as its reliability versus some goal versus other available metaphors.

IIRC as the bloke in the lecture I linked to rightly said, part of science is arguing reliability in some context; nothing anywhere is stable enough to pass as ubiquitously applicable. Thus, when the context or even perception of the context changes, a new metaphor can quickly be found to be more useful.

So, with shifting goal posts like that, everything is always "wrong" from a certain perspective. At the same time, the returns a community of smart cookies can get from making the same set of assumptions, employing the same set of definitions, and running experimental work on that shared basis, worldwide across languages and cultures, are enormous. It's not that "reality" becomes clearer, but that our ability to engineer it becomes greater as we persist within a shared set of assumptions.

This is presumably why shared cognitive models exist at all in the wild.

At the same time, if prevailing models fail to keep up with the shifting goal posts, revolution can of course be triggered.

Actually, the metaphor of free will is a great case in point. Indispensable for personal and group psychology, it is virtually useless in the sciences, for obvious reasons. At the same time, over-assumed in personal and group psychology, it becomes narcissistically delusional � and we know where that leads.

[Skids]

I was thinking about this last night... does wisdom come with age? What happened to listening to people who obviously are going to have more experience and IMO, more knowledge.

I notice on social media and in general, somebody in their 50's or 60's has a strong opinion on something and the younger generation are quick to dismiss them with the "Yeah righto Boomer" line. A far cry from when I was a youngster and the 'respect your elders' was an unquestioned rule.

This is probably digressing a bit but...

In the workplace now, I'm flabbergasted by the complacency and laziness in the younger employees.
We've just had a recent influx of new apprentices (80% female) and the attitudes toward work is astounding.
Our 'yard' had bins overflowing, things out of place, dirty vehicles etc and where are the apprentices... sitting in the smoko room on their phones!

I can't stand stuff like that, so here I am, 55 yr old Skids, emptying the bins and tidying the place up, hoping to set an example and wake them from their slumber. Nope, none budged.
Now I didn't say anything, as they're not 'my' apprentices, but I did raise the issue with the supervisors. Nothing happened, they're too scared to upset the kids.

Another example was when we had this young lady (22) want to expand her horizons from the admin desk and she became a TA for our team.
We had her with us when fixing a burst pipe in the wall of an ablution bock a few months into her new role. Absolutely no idea, not even remotely thinking ahead or having any initiative in the situation. Again, this pissed me off and I said to the chippy she was working under "do you mind if I have a chat with her?" He was all for it.
I approached her, very gently and tried to give her some constructive criticism about how she should be attacking the role. She agreed and i thought I'd had a win... nope, next job we're on, the old plumbers are busting their ring in the trenches, she's wandered off to the smokers hut, happily talking and laughing with other crew.
I gave up, and not long after, so did she. She now works back in admin, she's very good at that role too.

So, where di it all turn pear shape?
When I was an apprentice, no way in the world you'd be doing nothing at any time of the day, there's always something to do, even if it's cleaning and sorting the tools, washing the car, geez, even pulling out weeds, showing some enthusiasm... it's non existent today.

Back on the Older/Wiser topic.

[David]

[stui magpie]

I agree

[think positive]

The 10 fucktards today should be put straight in Juvie, they and their family to pay all costs including for the police chase, throw away the key til they are 18.

[stui magpie]

[Skids]

Yes, you're spot on there Stui.
I remember one occasion (we were about 15) when our local cop, Sgt Ball, caught us drinking outside a public pool one night. He beat the shit out of me with his torch, told me to get home and he'd be calling my old man in half an hour to make sure I was there. Dad gave me another hiding when I got home.

Now, you see videos of smart arses giving the cops a hard time and a heap of lip. No way anyone would have spoken to a cop the way they do now, no way in the world.

I still see old Mr Ball at the footy, he's been a trainer at Swan Districts for 50 years. He was tough, but he was fair.

[think positive]

[David]

I'd "respect" my elders too if they were going to give me a belting at the first opportunity.

I guess the challenge – and I mean this seriously, as a parent who struggles with enforcing discipline sometimes – is how to build respect for elders, authority figures or community without the threat of violence. One thing that I think all of us in this thread can probably agree on is that our society hasn't quite figured out how to do that.

[think positive]

note i said a smack not a belting

[David]

Wherever we draw the line, it's still physical force, right? I'm not saying I don't see the difference between limited corporal punishment and the kind of violence that, say, Skids describes, but at the end of the day both are framed around physical expressions of authority. So the challenge is for those of us who (by choice) don't have recourse to physical authority to find an effective alternative.

[Skids]

I found with my girls, a smack once was all that was required. From then on, just the threat was enough.
I could count the times I spanked my daughters on one hand.

One of my grand sons is a little terror, he's had a few spankings from his Mum. Sharnee has found the best course of action is to say 'I'll call Grandad!". That seems to work best, even though I've never laid a hand on him.

[stui magpie]

There's a lot of information out there about how to discipline kids without being physical, unfortunately most parents don't have access to it so everyone goes freeform.

Some just repeat what they experienced, others try to do the opposite, others in the middle somewhere.

Smacking is not on but at the other end people who let their kids do whatever they want with no understanding of what they're doing are raising self entitled twats.

[think positive]