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The great Travis Cloke debate

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Cuthbert Collingwood Aquarius

Once was on fire, now all at sea


Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Location: The BBC (Brunswick Bowling Club)

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:36 pm
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RudeBoy wrote:
I have been a long critic of Cloke, because I reckon he let us down way too often, and made us too predictable going forward. I was also extremely disappointed in the way he and his old man conducted their contract negotiations with our club through the media. This year I felt he simply was not playing with enough intensity so was glad he was finally dropped.


Love Clokey but agree with you about the contract. Can't help thinking that he's been playing with a mix of "personal issues" (the sort of stuff you go through in your twenties) and OPEPLF-DGAFS (over-paid EPL footballer don't give a f*ck syndrome) for the last few years though. Look at his contested marking stats - averaged over 3 per game 2010-12 and less than half that since.

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Collingwood Crackerjack 



Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:53 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Collingwood Crackerjack wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
^

If White keeps his current form up, he is a valuable utility player. He can basically play anywhere in a pinch.


The much vaunted, rarely seen, Leigh Brown Role


The things Leroy bought to the table apart from being a 3rd tall and ruck, intimidation and aggression, don't show up in the stats. I can't think of a single player in the league ATM who can play his role like he did,


Thats exactly my point

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Bob Sugar 



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:29 pm
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roar wrote:
Dave The Man wrote:
Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic


Why is that?

Cloke would have better figures, so really it's only because of development that we would continue to play Moore - and probably less morale-sapping misses.


Cloke doesn't play the same position as Moore so comparing stats is useless, Cloke was the main target in our fwd line so he got the lions share of I50 entries directed at him, in which he did **** all with.

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 12:17 am
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Dave The Man wrote:
Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic


Just so.

When Moore gets the ball, he does something good with it. Nearly every time. And he does it immediately. He doesn't boot ridiculous poins from 15m out and huge OOFs, and he doesn't take the pill up on the wing and swing around in a giant lumbering loop big enough to park a bus inside before booting a high could-have-predicted-where-the-ball-will-fall-last-week left footer into nowhere-in-particular.

I love Moore's work when he pushes up the ground to the wing and beyond. He makes space, he provides someone for the hard-pressed defenders to kick it to, and he uses the pill to effect. And he does it quickly, before the opposition defenders can make position to nullify the kick. And inside 50, of course, there is no comparison.

Meanwhile, the Big Yank is causing opposition defenders the sort of heartache Cloke used to cause years ago when he was the best contested mark in the comp. What's more, he can kick straight. And he has wonderful basketballer's hands - quick as. And an amazing football brain for someone who's still only learning the game from scratch.

That leaves White. Well it would leave White, except there is some other bugger wearing Jesse's jumper now, and that other bugger can play!

Put Cloke back in and see us loose all that mobility and speed in attack we have gained. Or leave a winning combination intact.

Sorry Trav. Your best chance of getting a game now is to run over one of your teammates in the carpark. Or you could do a Tarrant and reboot as a full back. You've got the talent to be an All-Australian full back. You'd monster the likes of Hawkins.. You'd push Brown and Frost out of the side if you put your mind to it, and best of all, we would never, ever have to watch you kick for goal again.

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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:37 am
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AN_Inkling wrote:
RudeBoy wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
There is simply no plausible basis for selecting Moore ahead of Cloke beyond player development. Moore hasn't had a single good game this year (although he did have a reasonable second half against Carlton after failing to get a kick in the first half). Cloke was dropped after 2 games in succession in which he had more of the ball than Moore has had in any game this season. That could have been done (and no doubt was) for all sorts of reasons - but one of them wasn't that Moore was playing better. In fact, the stats show that in those 2 games, Cloke had 24 kicks - precisely, as fate would have it, 3 times the 8 Moore had over those 2 games. If you count handballs, Cloke only had twice as many disposals as Moore but he did kick 4 times as many goals.


Quoted from another thread. There is clearly something more to the Cloke story than meets the eye, as his form against Richmond and Melbourne didn't look at all bad, to me, and as a key forward you'd think that Travis would worry opposition coaches more than Darcy for the reasons P4S clearly explains.

He could have been omitted for team balance and player development reasons, but that does not really square with Buckley's statement that he neds to go back to "rediscover his hunger and enjoyment of his footy" (or words largely to that effect). I'd say his demotion has something to do with a perceived attitude or commitment problem, either on-field or off. I find it hard to believe that it's just about developing Darcy, important though that is.


Darcy Moore has cemented his spot and is getting better each game. The same might just about be said for Cox and White. Cloke is now 4th in line for a key marking forward spot. Just as Josh Fraser lost his senior spot in 2010, so too has Cloke in 2016. Who knows, he might win his spot back, but it wouldn't surprise me if he never plays for our senior team again.

On direct form comparison? That's just not correct. Even this season Cloke has performed better than our other tall forwards and Moore has been our second worst ahead of Gault.

I agree with Mugwump, this was not a decision made only on form. It's a commitment issue or a breakdown in the relationship. Cloke's form was at it's best just as he was dropped. Clearly, despite performing better than the other tall forwards he's not doing what the coaches require of him, either on or off field.

Whatever the reason for his demotion, we need him back in the team to be at our best, our other tall forwards don't come close to matching him.


Inky mate your looking at it the wrong way around mate.
Cloke hadn't been great since 2013 he's at best been fair with the occasional good game.
Cloke has played over 200 games and understands the game
Moore has played what 20 games and is still learning the game
Cloke was never dropped because of goal kicking being off target or about getting a certain number of kicks or marks.
He was dropped because his attitude was disgraceful and his inability to play the team ethos. Bucks said Travis isn't enjoying his football and needs to find that hunger again
His second efforts which he was renowned for has been no existent for 18 months.
Right now Moore isn't as good as player as Travis but he won't improve if he doesn't play and his efforts and second efforts and his courage, and ability to make contests are in front of Cloke
I want Cloke back in at his best but right now he hasn't shown enough (reading VFL reports) to earn his place back.
Inky the way I see it Buckley made a statement to all players that effort & attitude are equally important as any stats.
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:33 am
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Tannin wrote:
Dave The Man wrote:
Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic


Just so.

When Moore gets the ball, he does something good with it. Nearly every time. And he does it immediately. He doesn't boot ridiculous poins from 15m out and huge OOFs, and he doesn't take the pill up on the wing and swing around in a giant lumbering loop big enough to park a bus inside before booting a high could-have-predicted-where-the-ball-will-fall-last-week left footer into nowhere-in-particular.

I love Moore's work when he pushes up the ground to the wing and beyond. He makes space, he provides someone for the hard-pressed defenders to kick it to, and he uses the pill to effect. And he does it quickly, before the opposition defenders can make position to nullify the kick. And inside 50, of course, there is no comparison.

Meanwhile, the Big Yank is causing opposition defenders the sort of heartache Cloke used to cause years ago when he was the best contested mark in the comp. What's more, he can kick straight. And he has wonderful basketballer's hands - quick as. And an amazing football brain for someone who's still only learning the game from scratch.

That leaves White. Well it would leave White, except there is some other bugger wearing Jesse's jumper now, and that other bugger can play!

Put Cloke back in and see us loose all that mobility and speed in attack we have gained. Or leave a winning combination intact.

Sorry Trav. Your best chance of getting a game now is to run over one of your teammates in the carpark. Or you could do a Tarrant and reboot as a full back. You've got the talent to be an All-Australian full back. You'd monster the likes of Hawkins.. You'd push Brown and Frost out of the side if you put your mind to it, and best of all, we would never, ever have to watch you kick for goal again.


Great post, agree with it all. Been saying for a while play Cloke at half back too! May as well get some return for all that dosh.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:51 am
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roar wrote:
Dave The Man wrote:
Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic


Why is that?

Cloke would have better figures, so really it's only because of development that we would continue to play Moore - and probably less morale-sapping misses.

How do you know he would have better figures?

Darcy goes for everything. They just don't all come off. If you don't touch the ball much, and have a higher success rate, your figures are better, but you can't compare them with someone getting a lot of touches but a few changers. I think it was Rudeboy mentioned the second efforts re Cloke not being sighted, and that's it in a nutshell fo me. And bucks could be right, second efforts are hard to dig up if your not enjoying playing. Comparing the two is just not possible. I said a couple of weeks back to play Cloke as the expensive decoy to protect Moore. And this week Jessie did that and more, he played a blinder, and got his own goals too. That's what I'd like Cloke to do. If he can do that, we can beat any defence in the comp. personally the whole forward line last week that stood up to the massive geeeelong defence deserves another crack. They beat the 2nd best defence in the completion at the moment from 12 position. Why mess with it?

The Reid led defence was fantastic too, and with Marley back I'm looking for something special. I'd maybe crock Crocker for him, but it seems harsh, but he's a kid so he would expect it.

The good thing is, aside from Sawanny no one is a direct walk back in player right now. They have to work for it. Gees, what a turn around in a fortnight of footy.

I have no idea wether the Brisbane game meant anything, I didn't see it at all. But coming out like that against geeeelong, and then holding on despite fatigue, less experience, tiring young players, oh and the fact they are second on the ladder, well honestly, I don't think any player deserves to lose their spot. Everyone played their part.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:30 am
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Well, roar knows that because it's statistically accurate - as to which, see, eg, the various recent posts on that subject, both "for" and "against" Travis. That alone doesn't mean Cloke should replace Moore and, as some have argued, the relative values of the respective games played by 2 footballers are not appropriately measured merely by their numbers of disposals, marks and goals kicked.
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neil Sagittarius



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Location: Queensland

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 11:17 am
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Moore will need a rest at some stage this year
Who is willing to guarantee Whites form will continue
Building a forward line around a 25 yo with <5 games experience is insane

Locking the tall forward structure as is smacks of insanity

Waiting to the forward line gets demolished and then make changes seems unrealistic

Both Cloke and Witts will play senior football this year

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Daicosesque 



Joined: 25 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:25 pm
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I wonder what Freo would give us for him, second time around..
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:39 pm
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^^^ Depends on whether he comes back into the seniors soon and kicks, say, 25 to 30 goals between now and the end of the season (in which case, everyone will want him, including Collingwood - just like everyone wanted him in the middle of last season when he was kicking 3 goals a game) or whether he finishes the season as barely a blip on the senior horizon (in which case nobody much will be bidding, you'd think).

Freo is probably not the right destination, timing-wise (they wanted him while they still had the rest of a competitive team but may have modified their thinking about their competitive position after a 0 win, 9 loss start).
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69 years a MAGPIE Libra



Joined: 12 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:42 pm
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I admit I am a Cloke fan and want to see him back. That's why I am so impressed with his current attitude - pissed off about being dropped but intent on winning back his place. Cloke, Cox and Moore in the forward half, White on the wing and Howe at half back, with the option of switching White and Cloke. Little guys at their feet.
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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:04 pm
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roar wrote:
Dave The Man wrote:
Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic


Why is that?

Cloke would have better figures, so really it's only because of development that we would continue to play Moore - and probably less morale-sapping misses.


Cloke get Bigger Numbers but Moore more Effective with less Ball.

Moore way better set shot on Goal then Cloke.

Moore outs more Efforts in then Cloke

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:48 pm
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Dave The Man wrote:
roar wrote:
Dave The Man wrote:
Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic


Why is that?

Cloke would have better figures, so really it's only because of development that we would continue to play Moore - and probably less morale-sapping misses.


Cloke get Bigger Numbers but Moore more Effective with less Ball.

Moore way better set shot on Goal then Cloke.

Moore outs more Efforts in then Cloke


It's a nice story Dave but still waiting for someone to demonstrate how somebody who gets so much less of the footy and kicks so much less score can actually out-contribute the other person.

Been numerous times when discussing other players that people have claimed that they get to contests or they're running to the right spots or they're competing well, just not getting the footy. Your typical response is to label them after some potato by-product because they aren't getting the footy. I sense some double standards here.
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:58 pm
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Daicosesque wrote:
I wonder what Freo would give us for him, second time around..


They'd give up their balls.

If they had any.

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