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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | What did I say that was wrong? It's all on record and sourced. Favouring the in-group is hardly controversial (or disputed) and the boycott is well known as a spark that helped ignite the fire of hatred from the simmering anger and antipathy that already existed after the complete $�$%^%%$ of Germany in the 1920s.
FWIW Jews have been expelled over and over again from many different countries throughout history, so it's hard to pin down specifics.
http://danadler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/JewishExpulsions.png
I swear you people just see that it's me writing something and jump on it. |
Perhaps it's a chicken or egg thing, but the Nazis were already on record with extreme anti-semitic views long before 1933 - so, not only was a Jewish boycott of Hitler's Germany perfectly reasonable, it seems unlikely that it played a significant role in the oppression that was to come.
As for getting jumped on, you did more or less just write that all non-white supremacist writing on Jews is 'whitewashed'. Saying that the truth about, say, the Holocaust or Jewish World Domination lies somewhere between Neo-Nazi conspiracy theories and the official record is perhaps not the most popular line to take nowadays. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Indeed, the violent antisemitism was flagrantly evident in Mein Kampf in 1922. While the material you posted was used as justification by the Nazis (not that they felt they needed any), Wokko, it doesn't explain what happened. I thought it was a bit of an unusual take on the subject, tbh.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| watt price tully wrote: |
2.3 The UK & its role in antisemtism ( see York & Jews) Quite fascinating on one level & painful: (some would say not much has changed)
"...In 1144 came the first report in history of the blood libel against Jews; it came up in the case of William of Norwich (1144).[4] Anthony Julius finds that the English were endlessly imaginative in inventing anti-Semitic allegations against the Jews. He says that England became the "principal promoter, and indeed in some sense the inventor of literary anti-Semitism."[5] In his book, Julius argues that blood libel is the key, because it incorporates the themes that Jews are malevolent, constantly conspiring against Christians, powerful, and merciless. Variations include stories about Jews poisoning wells, twisting minds, and buying and selling Christian souls and bodies...."
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Just a word of caution here. If you've read much medieval history, this is pretty standard stuff. I don't mean persecution of Jews in particular, I just mean appalling bloodthirsty hate speech in general, and acts to match. Europeans (including the English) in those days made our own present-day ISIS scum look like half-decent citizens and Hitler look like a sensible, civilised man. (Only reason they didn't kill 6 million people all in one go is that they got a bit bored building bonfires and had to slip home to milk the cows now and gain. Besides, there were only 80-odd million in the whole of Europe - i.e., about as many people as there are in Germany alone today.)
Or jump forward a few hundred years and look at the mind-boggling hatred of Catholics in the 1600s in England (and other places) matched by the most horrible persecution. Slip over to western Europe and you have the same deal in reverse - the Spanish Inquisition remains infamous for brutality to this day.
My point here is simply one of context. To the modern reader that passage you quoted seem bizarre and terrible (as indeed it is!) but seen in the context of the times, it's not far beyond average, everyday standard fare.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Gees I really missed a lot at Sunday school. And school come to think of it, since my first primary school was actually a country church! In cotton end Bedford! |
I was brought up Catholic, though not fervently so, and one of the oddities of that was that for one year - I guess about 1968- I was excused from RE classes at Vermont primary school and allowed to sit in the corridor with Danny Finkelstein while they went on. I remember they gave us slates to draw on, which we used to draw pictures of Protestants. It only happened for one year. I guess my mother must have ticked an opt-out box or something.
An interesting and informative discussion all round, Nicksters, cheers |
Cheers
How is Danny? Cool name
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Tannin wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
2.3 The UK & its role in antisemtism ( see York & Jews) Quite fascinating on one level & painful: (some would say not much has changed)
"...In 1144 came the first report in history of the blood libel against Jews; it came up in the case of William of Norwich (1144).[4] Anthony Julius finds that the English were endlessly imaginative in inventing anti-Semitic allegations against the Jews. He says that England became the "principal promoter, and indeed in some sense the inventor of literary anti-Semitism."[5] In his book, Julius argues that blood libel is the key, because it incorporates the themes that Jews are malevolent, constantly conspiring against Christians, powerful, and merciless. Variations include stories about Jews poisoning wells, twisting minds, and buying and selling Christian souls and bodies...."
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Just a word of caution here. If you've read much medieval history, this is pretty standard stuff. I don't mean persecution of Jews in particular, I just mean appalling bloodthirsty hate speech in general, and acts to match. Europeans (including the English) in those days made our own present-day ISIS scum look like half-decent citizens and Hitler look like a sensible, civilised man. (Only reason they didn't kill 6 million people all in one go is that they got a bit bored building bonfires and had to slip home to milk the cows now and gain. Besides, there were only 80-odd million in the whole of Europe - i.e., about as many people as there are in Germany alone today.)
Or jump forward a few hundred years and look at the mind-boggling hatred of Catholics in the 1600s in England (and other places) matched by the most horrible persecution. Slip over to western Europe and you have the same deal in reverse - the Spanish Inquisition remains infamous for brutality to this day.
My point here is simply one of context. To the modern reader that passage you quoted seem bizarre and terrible (as indeed it is!) but seen in the context of the times, it's not far beyond average, everyday standard fare. |
York however is an exemplar & quite famous for a focus of anti semitism in the UK, you'll find it in many references. That is no to say that others have not been maligned, persecuted to be sure. However, Stui's question was quite specifically about Jews & York stands out as a shocker. I should know, i was there.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | What did I say that was wrong? It's all on record and sourced. Favouring the in-group is hardly controversial (or disputed) and the boycott is well known as a spark that helped ignite the fire of hatred from the simmering anger and antipathy that already existed after the complete $�$%^%%$ of Germany in the 1920s.
FWIW Jews have been expelled over and over again from many different countries throughout history, so it's hard to pin down specifics.
http://danadler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/JewishExpulsions.png
I swear you people just see that it's me writing something and jump on it. |
Perhaps it's a chicken or egg thing, but the Nazis were already on record with extreme anti-semitic views long before 1933 - so, not only was a Jewish boycott of Hitler's Germany perfectly reasonable, it seems unlikely that it played a significant role in the oppression that was to come.
As for getting jumped on, you did more or less just write that all non-white supremacist writing on Jews is 'whitewashed'. Saying that the truth about, say, the Holocaust or Jewish World Domination lies somewhere between Neo-Nazi conspiracy theories and the official record is perhaps not the most popular line to take nowadays. |
I'd written a reasonably long post defending what I'd said but I think i'll just leave this powder keg alone, which was my first instinct that I should've listened to. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Indeed, the violent antisemitism was flagrantly evident in Mein Kampf in 1922. While the material you posted was used as justification by the Nazis (not that they felt they needed any), Wokko, it doesn't explain what happened. I thought it was a bit of an unusual take on the subject, tbh. |
Unusual - you ol' diplomat you.
I'm off to work & deal with others who claim to know the truth, Last week I met a fellow who claimed to know the truth, called himself god. Need 6 police to handcuff him.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
2.3 The UK & its role in antisemtism ( see York & Jews) Quite fascinating on one level & painful: (some would say not much has changed)
"...In 1144 came the first report in history of the blood libel against Jews; it came up in the case of William of Norwich (1144).[4] Anthony Julius finds that the English were endlessly imaginative in inventing anti-Semitic allegations against the Jews. He says that England became the "principal promoter, and indeed in some sense the inventor of literary anti-Semitism."[5] In his book, Julius argues that blood libel is the key, because it incorporates the themes that Jews are malevolent, constantly conspiring against Christians, powerful, and merciless. Variations include stories about Jews poisoning wells, twisting minds, and buying and selling Christian souls and bodies...."
|
Just a word of caution here. If you've read much medieval history, this is pretty standard stuff. I don't mean persecution of Jews in particular, I just mean appalling bloodthirsty hate speech in general, and acts to match. Europeans (including the English) in those days made our own present-day ISIS scum look like half-decent citizens and Hitler look like a sensible, civilised man. (Only reason they didn't kill 6 million people all in one go is that they got a bit bored building bonfires and had to slip home to milk the cows now and gain. Besides, there were only 80-odd million in the whole of Europe - i.e., about as many people as there are in Germany alone today.)
Or jump forward a few hundred years and look at the mind-boggling hatred of Catholics in the 1600s in England (and other places) matched by the most horrible persecution. Slip over to western Europe and you have the same deal in reverse - the Spanish Inquisition remains infamous for brutality to this day.
My point here is simply one of context. To the modern reader that passage you quoted seem bizarre and terrible (as indeed it is!) but seen in the context of the times, it's not far beyond average, everyday standard fare. |
York however is an exemplar & quite famous for a focus of anti semitism in the UK, you'll find it in many references. That is no to say that others have not been maligned, persecuted to be sure. However, Stui's question was quite specifically about Jews & York stands out as a shocker. I should know, i was there. |
Indeed, the Clifford Tower in York has an excellent exhibition on the terrible persecution and massacre/mass-suicide of Jews that took place in 1100 or thereabouts. Typically these events were orchestrated by powers (even up to the King himself) that wanted to confiscate the Jews' wealth to meet some deficit or other. Medieval England was a horrible place.
By the 19th century, though, Jewish identity in England had become so thoroughly normalised and accepted that one of the greatest ever Conservative Prime Ministers, Disraeli, was - as the name implies - Jewish. I don't know why that happened, but I can imagine that an England exploding economically after the Industrial revolution was much in need of Jewish capital and the economic reverses were relatively few, so there were fewer motives for persecution. A growing middle class, that great anchor of stability, doubtless helped.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| No I have not seen in the context of the times it's not average everyday standard fare . What's it like? |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Who says the VPT can't be edumacational?
Good stuff all, and thanks for the context about the Catholics "owning" Europe and treating Jews as non citizens WPT. That makes all the following stuff from others fit into the boxes.
I guess perceptions formed over a number of generations can be hard to shake even if the original stimulus for them is long gone.
It would seem that old enmity is long gone in most, (you'd certainly think so in Australia) but I guess in some people it's just under the surface waiting to get out.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Who says the VPT can't be edumacational?
Good stuff all, and thanks for the context about the Catholics "owning" Europe and treating Jews as non citizens WPT. That makes all the following stuff from others fit into the boxes.
I guess perceptions formed over a number of generations can be hard to shake even if the original stimulus for them is long gone.
It would seem that old enmity is long gone in most, (you'd certainly think so in Australia) but I guess in some people it's just under the surface waiting to get out. |
Cheers Stui.
The film Shoah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_(film) 1985 shows not too much has changed really. Also current Europe also shows much the same this time with North African & Middle eastern let alone "white" Europeans. Those behind the iron curtain had a different upbringing to the west & add another layer.
I also draw your attention to the European world cup soccer a coupe of years ago which I posted here previously about Poland & the Ukraine - but that's another story.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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A lot of good points about how specific circumstances brought about the type of anti semitism we see, particularly over money. In the end though it really boils down to always being a migrant population, doesn't it? During difficult times the other will always be scapegoated first. The Jews having been particularly successful were always an easy target. We see a similar hatred of the Roma people who have never had a homeland.
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Well done boys! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Gees I really missed a lot at Sunday school. And school come to think of it, since my first primary school was actually a country church! In cotton end Bedford! |
I was brought up Catholic, though not fervently so, and one of the oddities of that was that for one year - I guess about 1968- I was excused from RE classes at Vermont primary school and allowed to sit in the corridor with Danny Finkelstein while they went on. I remember they gave us slates to draw on, which we used to draw pictures of Protestants. It only happened for one year. I guess my mother must have ticked an opt-out box or something.
An interesting and informative discussion all round, Nicksters, cheers |
Cheers
How is Danny? Cool name |
Dunno, we were only about 8 and he disappeared into life. But I still feel the affinity of the school corridor and hope he's done ok. There are lots of Danny Finkelsteins on Google ! It is an excellent name. I agree.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Pi wrote: | Interesting origin of the word scapegoat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat
Perhaps this is a revenge of sorts by goats as they have been a common ritual sacrifice in that part of the world.
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Scapegoat is a another name for a fainting goat and it goes back to the dawn farming, well before the bible was written.
Farmers would have at least 1 of these animals in a flock and when attacked the less valuable fainting goat would fall-over leaving the rest of the flock to escape unscathed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg
Last edited by 3.14159 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| 3.14159 wrote: | [quote="Pi"]Interesting origin of the word scapegoat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat
Perhaps this is a revenge of sorts by goats as they have been a common ritual sacrifice in that part of the world.
[/quote]
Scapegoat is a another name for a fainting goat.
Farmers would have at least 1 of these animals in a flock and when attacked the less valuable fainting goat would fall-over leaving the rest of the flock to get awae unscathed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg |
When is wikipediadot orgwikiScapegoat
Perhaps this not a revenge of sorts by goats as they was a common ritual sacrifice in that part of the world? |
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