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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:52 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Right. No worries then. Rolling Eyes


Think stevic and hawthorn


I'm old, my back hurts and I've been drinking.

WTF is a Stevic and I'd rather not think of Whorethorn. Confused

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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:16 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
I'm old, my back hurts and I've been drinking


Are you channelling me Shocked Razz

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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:24 pm
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Tannin wrote:
Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.


In your opinion.

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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:29 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Tannin wrote:
Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.


So maybe it's time to start handing out yellow cards and stamp down on the personal abuse, belittlement and sarcasm then if it's so rampant?


Plenty of examples of it in this thread. (See various posts above.)

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:49 pm
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I say let's promote mass hatred and fear one minute and feel all offended by sarcasm the next!

Nick's Taliban is as conflicted as hell because our culture has granted me the right to direct words at them which they think are only fit for Muslims and the unemployed, not folk of their social status. What next, a war on our own culture just to get at me?

The irony is delicious: The usual suspects hate Islam, but have just gathered like the Taliban to conduct an ad hoc disciplinary hearing to rule against the use of sarcasm! Laughing

"This man employed cutting sarcasm against me for copying and pasting a righteous headline from the Grand Mufti Breitbart's holy electronic scriptures, sent to him in the night by the angel Gatestone Institute. All I said was that Germany and Europe were in the grip of a rape epidemic caused by our enemies!"

Well, I say Nick's Taliban are being irresponsible and negligent as they have completely insufficient information, and an inadequate grasp of the problem at play and what can and can't be done about it. They're repeating the Iraq War error again.

To repeat the correct answer that no one listened to back then, yes, we hate Saddam Hussein, but that's obvious. Now, let's deal with the complex, adult part of the problem without unleashing far, far nastier forces, handing control to greedy opportunists, and then making the poor old peasants and the rest of us pay for it.

On the other hand, the Taliban could just push to repeal the right to use sarcasm Laughing

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Last edited by pietillidie on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:56 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:52 pm
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I can't be bothered anymore. I believe: Islam is very, very dangerous, global warming is the biggest furfy since snake oil, that we can't keep letting illegal immigrants come in at the rate we do, the racist card is flung around way too much and gay people should just get on with their lives and cease their constant attention seeking crap.... nobody cares.

That is all. Have a nice day Smile

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:19 am
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think positive wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Right. No worries then. Rolling Eyes



How about stevic being allowed to umpire hawthorn in the grand final hey?


Reminds me of when 1061 accused me of "looking out for mates" when I deleted her personal attacks on you. Who'd be a moderator?

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:15 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Tannin wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Tannin wrote:
Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.


So maybe it's time to start handing out yellow cards and stamp down on the personal abuse, belittlement and sarcasm then if it's so rampant?


Plenty of examples of it in this thread. (See various posts above.)


For starters, this thread wasn't a thread, it was split off from another thread after a couple of posters got sick of PTID nasty veiled replies to their comments and opinions which were posted in good faithful another thread. Two of us made comments to try and stop the fight, gently pointing out that belittling others has no place in discussion. Which just ramped him up. So yes, the replies came. I'm sick of it. No one gets a pass just because they use more grown up language to take pot shots at other posters. These threads always come about because he stirs the pot. I like the tavern, I used to like that I could post in a serious thread my harmless opinion and occasionally get laughed at in a nice way, or have my opinion challenged without being made to feel, or being told directly I am, a fool. It makes me feel unworthy. And nobody on here has a right to make me feel that way. Don't let them you say that's your choice? This is me not letting them.

Ok so PTID went to uni, and likes to read books and watch documentaries, well we don't need to discuss anything anymore, just give us a thread title, and he can write an essay. No wonder so many long time posters are gone from the Tavern. It's supposed to be fun. It's not fun to be derided. However it seems, your supposed to just suck it up if the derision comes from certain people because hey they went to a bigger school than you, their humor is more sufisticated, (yep spelt wrong, let it eat at you). So our good old Aussie straight forward comments get snipped, but the sarcastic shit that started it, remains.

You really want to fix this world? Stop allowing people who think they are better than or above, everyone around them, that their opinion is the only one that counts.allowothers to express their opinions with out fear of repercussions. Wether mental or physical duress. Be it war, family daycare, in your house, in bay 13, and yes on a footy forum. It's called basic respect.

But that's just my opinion.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:21 am
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David wrote:
think positive wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Right. No worries then. Rolling Eyes



How about stevic being allowed to umpire hawthorn in the grand final hey?


Reminds me of when 1061 accused me of "looking out for mates" when I deleted her personal attacks on you. Who'd be a moderator?


Ok that was a bit obvious! But the point remains, that replies to comments have been snipped, and yet the nasty veiled stuff is still there. There is more than one way to call someone an idiot. None have a place here.

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:33 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
Tannin wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Tannin wrote:
Oh dear, is it Sunday again? It must be, we have the Great Weekly Let's All Shout At PTID Thread. Why? Who knows. He is certainly far, far from the most offensive poster here, and not even in the Top Ten so far as personal abuse, belittlement, and sarcasm goes.

F'kin stupid thread. Again.


So maybe it's time to start handing out yellow cards and stamp down on the personal abuse, belittlement and sarcasm then if it's so rampant?


Plenty of examples of it in this thread. (See various posts above.)


For starters, this thread wasn't a thread, it was split off from another thread after a couple of posters got sick of PTID nasty veiled replies to their comments and opinions which were posted in good faithful another thread. Two of us made comments to try and stop the fight, gently pointing out that belittling others has no place in discussion. Which just ramped him up. So yes, the replies came. I'm sick of it. No one gets a pass just because they use more grown up language to take pot shots at other posters. These threads always come about because he stirs the pot. I like the tavern, I used to like that I could post in a serious thread my harmless opinion and occasionally get laughed at in a nice way, or have my opinion challenged without being made to feel, or being told directly I am, a fool. It makes me feel unworthy. And nobody on here has a right to make me feel that way. Don't let them you say that's your choice? This is me not letting them.

Ok so PTID went to uni, and likes to read books and watch documentaries, well we don't need to discuss anything anymore, just give us a thread title, and he can write an essay. No wonder so many long time posters are gone from the Tavern. It's supposed to be fun. It's not fun to be derided. However it seems, your supposed to just suck it up if the derision comes from certain people because hey they went to a bigger school than you, their humor is more sufisticated, (yep spelt wrong, let it eat at you). So our good old Aussie straight forward comments get snipped, but the sarcastic shit that started it, remains.

You really want to fix this world? Stop allowing people who think they are better than or above, everyone around them, that their opinion is the only one that counts.allowothers to express their opinions with out fear of repercussions. Wether mental or physical duress. Be it war, family daycare, in your house, in bay 13, and yes on a footy forum. It's called basic respect.

But that's just my opinion.

No, the problem here is your inability to cope with the fact you there's no special constitution just for you, and that your nonsense smells no better than anyone else's nonsense.

<snip - that is a baseless imputation; please stick to the topic at hand.>

Wanting a situation where everyone can say what they like as long as it doesn't upset you, while you get to blurt out any old rubbish whenever you like absent the right of response as others see fit, just isn't an option. You've hit the hard wall of the Enlightenment, I'm afraid, and if you don't like that it's you who's in the wrong country.

Whoever told you that humanity should bow to your whim and outrage whenever you read an upsetting Facebook post was terribly wrong.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:59 am
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As usual a deflecting reply, that bypasses the actual subject.

All I'm asking for is common decency. The good manners not to play the man, but play the ball. No stevie j hits 50 metres off the ball.

And also please note I do not appreciate the snide connotation I'm a racist, or a bigot, in your reply.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:52 am
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^ reading this rather unhappy thread, any real coming together seems impossible. To use a footballing analogy, many people - I am one - feel that PTID snipes too much off the ball, and we'd like and end to the unsociable football and the occasional forearms to the back of the head. PTID seems to think that he's playing for the legitimate team (I guess that's Collingwood) and his opponents are playing for the illegitimate side (Carlton or
St Kilda) ...so his in-game tactics are perfectly justified by that. It's not likely to get resolved when we cannot even agree about how to frame the issue.

PTID, you have a lot to offer, but you're way too bright not to see that the way you go about it evidently gets in the way, and makes people less likely to see your point of view, not more. If that does not worry you, then we all have to learn to live with it (or switch it off) as best we can.

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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:03 am
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The really stupid thing here is that there is no obvious evidence to demonstrate that the lynch mob even has genuine grounds for complaint.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 am
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Tannin wrote:
The really stupid thing here is that there is no obvious evidence to demonstrate that the lynch mob even has genuine grounds for complaint.


I'm genuinely surprised at that, but I'm not sure you cop the same stuff as those who tend to be on the other side of the argument vis a vis PTID. When so many different posters have been here "asking" (ahem) PTID to moderate his behaviour, i'd say that's prima facie evidence that there's some serious rubbing up the wrong way going on, even if you do not think it warranted. I accept that it can feel uncomfortably like mobbing, which is why I'll make this my last entry in it, having stood aside from most of it.

I don't think it'd be acceptable to post pictures of Saddam Hussein suggesting that PtID supported Saddam's crimes because he opposed the Iraq War ( at least I think he opposed ithe war - he's never been entirely clear where he stands on that Wink) ....So i don't think it's acceptable when something along those lines is done to others. Rebuttal and gentle ribbing is fine - smear by false association is not. And that's what started this, with the posting of vigilante thugs in response to Wokko's argument about Islamisation. You may consider that ok, but i don't think it's fair play.

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:21 pm
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Wow, that's a bit convenient, Mugwump. You throw complete howlers and get it completely back-to-front. Then you sprint away to hide, damage from your shocking errors done.

Tannin has got it in one, I'm afraid, as the facts show.

I. My *actual* view as articulated directly prior to the kerfuffle

pietillidie's actual view on the matter written barely a few posts prior wrote:
The recognition of the hard limits of the human reality in order to make sound decisions which improve rather than worsen the world is not a moral flaw. It's ethical due diligence.

The issue is not an aesthetic one: Do you like burqas? Do you enjoy a wife being subject to a husband's brutality? Do you applaud the arranged marriages of 12-year-olds?

No one from our culture likes that stuff. The very suggestion is childish and trivialises something far more serious.


The fact is, many people understand our species has zero capacity to abandon the relational settings of a culture in a very short period of time, regardless. Some people may not be able to articulate the mechanics of that, but, from what I can tell, that's what they're getting at.

The undesirable, even brutal settings of cultural systems are absolute, hard physical boundaries unless (a) they are exposed to evolutionary pressures such as economic incentive under conditions of alternative cultural solutions, (b) they undergo radical violent change, or (c) they are submitted to some combination of (a) and (b).

The problem with neoconservative intervention is that it is under the bloodlust fantasy that (b) is preferable to no change. That the Iraq mess is preferable to Iranian oppression. That's what it's basically claiming. But it's not preferable at any level; it's the equivalent of, say, taking the very worst of life in Iran for the most oppressed Iranian minority, and making it daily life for an *entire* population. But that's just not an improvement.

That nonsense is what any sane person who is bearing with the received culture is opposing. I have never heard anyone, ever, oppose the need for cultural evolution or the application of evolutionary pressures to instigate cultural change.


II. The specific exchange under examination, minus the images Mugwump is referring to as the mods deleted those:

Wokko wrote:
pietillidie wrote:
Wokko wrote:
A lot of damage can be done to a culture in two generations. Just amazes me the blind spot that all the bleeding heart progressives have for a violent, oppressive, expansionist religion like Islam. They'd be the first on the chopping block in Saudi or Iran.

Is there a more irrelevant, pre-scientific and just plain dumb incantation outside ISIS prayer meetings?

The only amazing thing is how many times people can explain to you the hard, factual, scientific constraints of the Homo sapiens cognitive-emotional-environmental nexus without you grasping it.

It's like explaining the Blessed Trinity to a Mormon: "Yeah, but I still count three, not one."


It's only you spouting that <snip>, most sentient individuals can see the damage that Islam does to Western culture (see France, UK, Germany). They've only been trying to conquer Europe for 1000 years or so, and it's you and your ilk who are just handing it over.


III. Mugwump's hopelessly inaccurate claims

Mugwump wrote:
Tannin wrote:
The really stupid thing here is that there is no obvious evidence to demonstrate that the lynch mob even has genuine grounds for complaint.


I'm genuinely surprised at that, but I'm not sure you cop the same stuff as those who tend to be on the other side of the argument vis a vis PTID. When so many different posters have been here "asking" (ahem) PTID to moderate his behaviour, i'd say that's prima facie evidence that there's some serious rubbing up the wrong way going on, even if you do not think it warranted. I accept that it can feel uncomfortably like mobbing, which is why I'll make this my last entry in it, having stood aside from most of it.

I don't think it'd be acceptable to post pictures of Saddam Hussein suggesting that PtID supported Saddam's crimes because he opposed the Iraq War ( at least I think he opposed ithe war - he's never been entirely clear where he stands on that Wink) ....So i don't think it's acceptable when something along those lines is done to others. Rebuttal and gentle ribbing is fine - smear by false association is not. And that's what started this, with the posting of vigilante thugs in response to Wokko's argument about Islamisation. You may consider that ok, but i don't think it's fair play.

That is an horrifically erroneous post, Honest John Mugwump. You have got the claim both backwards (Wokko was the one who made the *false* association, and first) and wrong (my association was accurate, and it very appropriately illustrated the point I was making).

IV. What actually happened

  1. Blue text above - Wokko says bleeding hearts (let's assume that covers me in context) have a blind spot for violent and oppressive religion! Now, I don't know about you, but that looks a hell of a lot like Wokko's the one making an association of some sort!

    Even worse, I actually can't stand authoritarianism, and religious authoritarianism in particular, so it's not even close to being my interest here. My actual view, as quoted at the top of this post had just been explained afresh. And guess what? Wokko went right on as if it never existed! he went right on misrepresenting my view.

    Now, that's all fair sport to me in the cut and thrust of it, hence I never complained. But Mugwump is the one crapping on about "association" and "smear" hereexcept it's my views which have clearly been misrepresented! Shocked

    Once again, as is Mugwump's pretentious wont, special speech rules for me, free pass for those who are actually doing the mis-association!

  2. And did you see what Wokko just did to average Joe Muslims again when discussing a religion of 2B people with a huge number of sects and national forms? He just "associated" (to use Mugwump's term) those people with "a violent, oppressive, expansionist religion".

    Not a single comment correcting that egregious stereotyping of a massively divergent religion. As a person who regularly defends the diversity of Christianity from false attacks, I find it appalling that pretend moralists don't care more about the rights of average Joe Muslims to be fairly represented. Again, another free pass handed out to someone else.

  3. Red text above - In response to Wokko's efforts to judge ideas by their popularity"It's only you spouting that <snip>"in his words, I then mocked his views by posting pics of flag-waving English EDL twits who share the same or *extremely* similar views.

    And they do: If Mugwump is telling people they don't share similar views he's absolutely dead wrong. Have a read of the EDL's mission statement:

    Wokko's view wrote:
    ...a violent, oppressive, expansionist religion like Islam....


    EDL's mission URL wrote:

    http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/?page_id=9


    The image pietillidie used to mock the idea that the amount of support for a view reflects its quality taken from a Telegraph article on the EDL wrote:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100210451/english-defence-league-leader-endorses-ukip-this-is-a-nightmare-for-nigel-farage/

    So, once again, Mugwump in his driven bias has said I smeared Wokko when I very reasonably likened his views to those of the EDL!

  4. I then posted a George W. "Mission Accomplished" image, saying something like "perhaps we can bring back a real man to help save Western civilisation from Islam":

    The image pietillidie used to show another sort of fool who also holds Wokko's views, reminding him of where it got the world last time wrote:


  5. The usual Islam hysteria merchants mob together as is their wont, and Mr. *Unbiased Free Speech Forever* Honest John Mugwump repeats the Wokko error by telling Tannin that soooooooo many people just can't be wrong, before slinking away:

    Mugwump wrote:
    When so many different posters have been here "asking" (ahem) PTID to moderate his behaviour....

Nope, sorry. The fact is a small band of authoritarian, Islam hysteria merchants hate their ignorance, exaggeration, and completely deficient understanding of the problem being highlighted. They want free speech, but only for them.

Rather than respond to my technical arguments and concerns as outlined, and pay serious attention to the obvious failures of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the failure to constrain terrorism growth and people movements due to past brainless shrieking, they go right on blindly chanting nonsense, and mobbing anyone who dares challenge their foolish rot.

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