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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| All oppressors need apologists. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ptid, that was a high quality and interesting post, which deserves some agreement. My question is whether the only legitimate critique of, say, the Aztecs, could come from within Aztec society, as someone watched with strange disquiet the beating heart in the priest's hand at the top of the pyramid ?
Equally, applying the standard that you have, does that not legitimise the fierce determination of the Germans not to allow the ECB to effectively print money in aid of Greece, given the gotterdammerung that followed the hyperinflation of 1923 ? You seemed to have few scruples about savaging that as racism.
The trouble is, I think it is evident that there are enduring and universal human values and rights, though cultures may express these in different forms and find their own path to them: these are often the subject of folk tales, and they include the right to scrutinise the powerful and hold them up to critique, and for the vulnerable individual to have some recourse against the might of the state. As best I can judge from my limited direct interactions with Chinese culture, that is as pertinent to the Chinese as it is to Australians, though they may assert it with less confidence.
Your point, I think, is that we should not prescribe or judge precisely how it should be expressed - but surely the oppression of those very people within China who advocate for those rights is to be deprecated. |
But what if the views of certain dissidents don't represent workable reform? What if there are four other options and their particular angle leads nowhere?
Think within our context: If you knew nothing about Australia, would you do well to side with the dissidence of Reclaim Australia? Or the US Tea Party? Or the Socialist Alternative?
Again, it's not that I don't think there are good critiques, it's just that no one can explain to me what a serious critique and a serious reform platform within the China context looks like.
Consider Iraq: The mainstay of the conservative claim was ridding the world of Saddam; of course everyone was fine with that, but certainly not at the expense of even greater chaos and bloodshed.
Until we have the appropriate fine-grained insight, we might be condemning even more people to even more suffering. Blindly acting is not somehow morally superior to requesting serious information.
Note, I didn't say do nothing as a matter of policy. I challenged people to find out more before pontificating. As I say, if it were Korea I would have no problem making a call.
Think about it: People wouldn't make a call on even a fraction of their share portfolio with so little information!
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | All oppressors need apologists. |
Lord, your one liners are as good as your tricks!
Mate, got any working knowledge of Chinese politics and society to share with us?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The thing that gets me is that power's relationship with dissent seems to be such a universal phenomenon wherever you look in the world, or whichever historical epoch you look at.
I don't doubt that there are cultural norms that inform attitudes towards power and dissent. But is that really the point? Can the apathy, blindness or willing embrace of authority amongst a given populace ever make the fight against oppression any less courageous, or the violent reaction of the ruling class any more defensible?
The thing is, even in a relatively (compared to the history of human civilisation) liberal, equal society like Australia, a good proportion of the public more or less takes the status quo for granted and sees all dissenters as troublemakers. How many Australians would genuinely care or even notice if the government placed stricter boundaries around the right to protest tomorrow? Does that apathy make the actions of, say, Joh Bjelke-Petersen any less vile?
The desire for liberty – to not be oppressed by the powerful – is not a product of the English language or European DNA. Wherever it asserts itself, whether it happens to be on the very fringes of polite society or the middle of the mainstream, it serves the same function. The desire to conserve power and self-interest is likewise a universal human trait.
I'll be the first to admit that there are many complexities about Chinese culture that I know nothing about, and education is always a good thing. But I can't imagine what I could possibly discover that would make me think less of the Chinese struggle for human rights or think better of its brutal repression.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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P.S. I know absolutely nothing about Hutu and Tutsi ethnicity, politics or culture, but I'm still pretty confident that the Rwandan genocide was a bad thing.
Do we really need to be so coy about these things? As WPT likes to say, sometimes a zucchini really is a zucchini.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Yes; you know now! That's the easy bit! For all we know you might be down 38 million lives if you made blind calls on everything and we recorded the numbers!
Thus far we don't know if this is a zucchini or a duck!
Of course, quite generally there is pressure on China, and many people including myself in my own trivial way have been advocating for much greater engagement to hasten change. But that's the obvious bit.
What do I have to do to convince you to bring some detail to the problem? It's like pulling teeth!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I'm certain that rounding up voices of mild dissent and torturing or disappearing them is not necessary to effect any improvement in the condition of the lives of ordinary Chinese. The only thing it is "necessary" to is the preservation of the filth in charge. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^If making that observation moved mountains we wouldn't even be bothering with this thread!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| pietillidie wrote: |
But what if the views of certain dissidents don't represent workable reform? What if there are four other options and their particular angle leads nowhere?
Think within our context: If you knew nothing about Australia, would you do well to side with the dissidence of Reclaim Australia? Or the US Tea Party? Or the Socialist Alternative?
Again, it's not that I don't think there are good critiques, it's just that no one can explain to me what a serious critique and a serious reform platform within the China context looks like.
Consider Iraq: The mainstay of the conservative claim was ridding the world of Saddam; of course everyone was fine with that, but certainly not at the expense of even greater chaos and bloodshed.
Until we have the appropriate fine-grained insight, we might be condemning even more people to even more suffering. Blindly acting is not somehow morally superior to requesting serious information.
Note, I didn't say do nothing as a matter of policy. I challenged people to find out more before pontificating. As I say, if it were Korea I would have no problem making a call.
Think about it: People wouldn't make a call on even a fraction of their share portfolio with so little information! |
That's quite the argument for conservativism there, maybe there's some hope for you yet  |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I'm certain that rounding up voices of mild dissent and torturing or disappearing them is not necessary to effect any improvement in the condition of the lives of ordinary Chinese. The only thing it is "necessary" to is the preservation of the filth in charge. |
There was a time when Bolsheviks and Nazis were nothing more than voices of mild dissent. History would say that on balance they should've been rounded up too.
Playing Devil's Advocate here certainly, but all actions and non actions can have unforeseen consequences. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Wokko wrote: |
There was a time when Bolsheviks and Nazis were nothing more than voices of mild dissent. History would say that on balance they should've been rounded up too. |
Doubt they were ever mild dissent, Wokko, and they were rounded up in many cases. Many, if not most, of the leading Nazis and Sheviks spent some time in jail en route to power, or had to live in exile.
On the specific topic, however, iI's an interesting question : at what point is a government legitimised by simple effectiveness, even if its methods are harsh and its rulers semi-corrupt ? I don't much like the Chinese administration's politics, but i have to admit that it has worked for the majority of Chinese people, at least for now. They are certainly not like the African kleptocrats, or Putin, or Saddam. They seem more like Lee Kuan Yew - harsh, self-enriching, oppressive of dissent, but rational, flexible, and successful for the people being governed.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Anyhow, on this topic, I am not opposed to China moving forward at all. On the contrary! I offer my progressive, change-oriented views on Australia and South Korea, polities I understand to a much greater extent, as proof of that.
I can't even think about Korean politics for more than five minutes without breaking something, such is my fury at how folks are being shafted.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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