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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: TPP deal: goodbye Australian sovereignty |  |
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This is seriously alarming stuff. Currently being negotiated in secret, and likely to go through without challenge unless there's enough dissent in parliament and amongst the voting public.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/may/22/labor-greens-and-crossbenchers-concerned-at-trans-pacific-partnership?CMP=soc_567
| Quote: | Labor has raised concerns about the possible inclusion of investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) clauses, which allow corporations to sue federal and state governments if laws are enacted that adversely affect them.
Parke describes ISDS clauses as really scary.
Theyre like Trojan horses, because they allow so many other things in, she said.
Despite raising concerns on ISDS clauses, and refusing to sign free trade agreements that contained them when in office, Labor has refused to rule out supporting the TPP even with ISDS clauses.
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"TPP talks are being held in secret without unions, business, church, environmental or community groups being involved. This is great for big multinational companies but terrible for ordinary people and the role of governments."
Critics say ISDS clauses can have an impact on workers rights, pointing to an example in which waste management company Veolia sued the Egyptian government for raising the minimum wage because it affected the multinationals profit margin.
The Australian Medical Association has highlighted ways in which the TPP affects Australias health policies, citing the cost of medicines and food and product labelling as major concerns.
ISDS clauses could see a spike in cases such as the recent Philip Morris case, in which the cigarette company sued the Australian government over its plain packaging laws. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Apathetic Australians won't even realise what's happened until it's to late. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Wi thought I was stuttering
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Could you possibly get a bigger beat up?
In one part of the article they're having anxiety attacks because they say they don't know what's in the TPP deal, then they raise things that may POSSIBLY be in it and point out how bad it MIGHT be IF these things were included in something that they have no idea what is in it.
FMD.  Obviously this dog whistling caper works both ways. I'll be surprised if the SA isn't already planning protest marches on the strength of that article.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I could but other things take priority right now. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | Could you possibly get a bigger beat up?
In one part of the article they're having anxiety attacks because they say they don't know what's in the TPP deal, then they raise things that may POSSIBLY be in it and point out how bad it MIGHT be IF these things were included in something that they have no idea what is in it.
FMD. Obviously this dog whistling caper works both ways. I'll be surprised if the SA isn't already planning protest marches on the strength of that article. |
Stui, ISDS provisions are no joke. It's a concern that's already been raised in regard to our free trade agreement with China, and it's very much on the cards here. Do you think it's ok that foreign companies could be able to sue the Australian government over laws that harm their commercial interests? Or do you have faith in our government's bargaining power with the US?
Personally, I just hope they've brought some lube.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Could you possibly get a bigger beat up?
In one part of the article they're having anxiety attacks because they say they don't know what's in the TPP deal, then they raise things that may POSSIBLY be in it and point out how bad it MIGHT be IF these things were included in something that they have no idea what is in it.
FMD. Obviously this dog whistling caper works both ways. I'll be surprised if the SA isn't already planning protest marches on the strength of that article. |
Mate I like your sense of trust.
A nice way of putting it is that the loss of (some) sovereignty can be seen as an unintended consequence of FTA's.
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âI even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didnât keep âem under long enoughâ Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Could you possibly get a bigger beat up?
In one part of the article they're having anxiety attacks because they say they don't know what's in the TPP deal, then they raise things that may POSSIBLY be in it and point out how bad it MIGHT be IF these things were included in something that they have no idea what is in it.
FMD. Obviously this dog whistling caper works both ways. I'll be surprised if the SA isn't already planning protest marches on the strength of that article. |
Stui, ISDS provisions are no joke. It's a concern that's already been raised in regard to our free trade agreement with China, and it's very much on the cards here. Do you think it's ok that foreign companies could be able to sue the Australian government over laws that harm their commercial interests? Or do you have faith in our government's bargaining power with the US?
Personally, I just hope they've brought some lube. |
1. I didn't say ISDS provisions were a joke.
2. It's a concern that's been raised you say? Validly? Do we actually have any of these ISDS provisions in our trade agreement with China?
3. No I don't think it's OK that foreign countries could be able to sue our government, but who apart from one Guardian writer (I refuse to use the term journalist) and a couple of people who stand to make political mileage from a baseless scare campaign actually has said that this is a probability?
4. Yeah I do actually have some faith in our governments bargaining power with the US. They strategically need us as an ally because of where we are.
Give me some evidence that these ISDS provisions are legitimately on the table and I'll get concerned. Until then you're behaving exactly as the authors of this fiction wanted you to behave. Manipulated perfectly.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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OK, so they exist in that one and there has been no rending of hair and gnashing of teeth. Any details of what the clauses actually are and how they apply?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Don't confuse lack of mainstream media coverage with lack of genuine concern. There actually was a lot of criticism of them at the time, particularly given that Chinese businesses are more or less subject to the whims of the Chinese government.
We had a discussion about it on here, too.
Here's more explanation about these provisions:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement
| Quote: | Much debate has arisen concerning the impact of ISDS on the capacity of governments to implement reforms and legislative and policy programs related to public health, environmental protection and human rights.
Opponents argue that investor state claims (or the threat of them) inhibit the capacity of domestic governments (the "policy space") to pass legislation addressing perfectly legitimate public concerns, such as health and environmental protection, labour rights or human rights.
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In 2011, the Australian government announced that it would discontinue the practice of seeking inclusion of investor state dispute settlement provisions in trade agreements with developing countries. It stated that it:
| Quote: | | "...supports the principle of national treatment that foreign and domestic businesses are treated equally under the law. However, the Government does not support provisions that would confer greater legal rights on foreign businesses than those available to domestic businesses. Nor will the Government support provisions that would constrain the ability of Australian governments to make laws on social, environmental and economic matters in circumstances where those laws do not discriminate between domestic and foreign businesses. The Government has not and will not accept provisions that limit its capacity to put health warnings or plain packaging requirements on tobacco products or its ability to continue the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme... In the past, Australian Governments have sought the inclusion of investor-state dispute resolution procedures in trade agreements with developing countries at the behest of Australian businesses. The Gillard Government will discontinue this practice. If Australian businesses are concerned about sovereign risk in Australian trading partner countries, they will need to make their own assessments about whether they want to commit to investing in those countries... Foreign businesses investing in Australia will be entitled to the same legal protections as domestic businesses but the Gillard Government will not confer greater rights on foreign businesses through investor-state dispute resolution provisions." |
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Have a read through the rest of it yourself. Plenty of examples of companies using these provisions to limit governments' power to legislate.
Note that, in the Fairfax article I posted above, George Brandis gave a clear indication that this government has no concern about ISDS provisions and is happy to reverse the previous government's opposition to them. So, yes, it's clearly on the cards here.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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BTW, Stui, John Howard as well as the last two Labor Prime Ministers repeatedly refused to submit to ISDS provisions in free trade talks with the US. Considering our government is currently being sued by an overseas tobacco company over our plain-packaging laws, you'd have to think they had a good point.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I will take that under consideration. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Some more information on the TPP deal:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/02/australian-mps-allowed-to-see-top-secret-trade-deal-text-on-condition-of-confidentiality
| Quote: | Among the most controversial provisions of the TPP is the proposed investor state dispute settlement mechanism, which could allow multinational corporations to challenge Australian government policies in international arbitration tribunals, for example plain-packaging laws or environmental or health regulations.
The former Labor government put a footnote into the TPP investment text saying Australia did not agree to ISDS provisions. The current government has according to the leaked Wikileaks version added that it is prepared to agree to ISDS if certain conditions are met.
Australia wants exemptions from intellectual property provisions for any measures comprising or related to the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, Medicare Benefits Scheme, the Therapeutic Goods Administration and the Office of the Gene Technology Regulator. The government is particularly concerned to make sure the agreement does not require Australia to extend the period that drugs remain on patent, because of the huge potential impact on the cost of Australias pharmaceutical benefits scheme.
Parke said she still had extremely grave concerns about the ISDS provisions. I note that the briefing confirmed that the Philip Morris scenario could still happen under this agreement.
The tobacco giant is using ISDS provisions in Australias free-trade agreement with Hong Kong to challenge plain-packaging laws that have been upheld by Australias high court.
Xenophon said he was also concerned about ISDS, saying 40 years ago Gough Whitlam abolished appeals to the [British] privy council in what was a watershed moment for Australian sovereignty. We now seem to be going back to the colonial era where court cases, not just appeals, will be determined overseas.
Butler said she also remained concerned about the ISDS provisions ... I will need a lot more information to be satisfied this is in the national interest, compared with the status quo, which is the bilateral trade agreements we already have with most of these countries. |
One of the commenters sums up my concerns pretty well:
| Quote: | So -- how much do you trust this government?
Do you think they have good business sense, a good understanding of how the economy works, and the ability to stimulate the creation of jobs and encourage creative business and industry development?
Do you think they care about the Australian people and have a real appreciation and concern about maintaining Australian values such as the "fair go"?
I thought not. |
Having this lot negotiate on our behalf in secrecy is kind of like being represented in court by the local ice dealer. It does not fill one with confidence.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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I wonder if this is a political decision then down the track another party changes track.
International agreements can be broken
If a trade agreement was being abused by corporations then it should be changed!
Of course the concerns raised are very valid - but I would think when people wake up it will be addressed.
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Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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