ISIS
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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Jezza 
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| 3.14159 wrote: | My god you can be obtuse!
Sympathise does not mean support!
The "sympathy" stems from a deep religious belief that their Profit must be depicted by man lest it cloud his words.
Charlie Hebdo has long history of mocking Islam that many/most true Muslims find offensive but that doesn't mean they agree with what happened on that day!
The same goes for ISIS!
Many Muslims support the idea of an autonomous Islamic state (the current boarders were drawn up nearly 100 years ago by the British with little thought or planning for the different religious, ethnic, cultural, and historic boundaries) but are appalled and saddened by what is happening in that part of the world and the adverse effect it is having on Western perceptions of Islam.
So yes many "sympathise" but few, a VERY few condone the beheadings and other acts carried out in it's name! (Daesh).
Call me a cynic but it seems the government and media like to ramp up ethnic tensions in a bit to take attention away from what is happening in Cabinet room or the media needs to sell more papers.
The sad part about all this is it does nothing to the heal the rifts between the 2 ideologies (Western democracy and Islam) and adds further fuel to the fire.
Toneing down the rhetoric and start engaging in dialogue is the one thing hard nosed right-wingers are NOT interested in doing! |
To be honest you actually wouldn't know for sure on what basis some Muslims (presumably Sunnis and more specifically Wahhabists and Kharijites) would sympathise with hardline Sunni Jihadist groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda in terms of whether they agree with their objectives but disagree with their tactics to achieve those objectives in the first place. More research and surveys would need to be conducted to ascertain why some muslims would support or at the very least 'sympathise' with groups like ISIS in the first place.
In terms of the Charlie Hebdo shootings in France I find the figures that more than a quarter of British Muslims sympathise with such actions as concerning. It demonstrates the ultra-conservative nature of the Islamic religion if it believes that such actions are somewhat justified or are met with sympathy all because their prophet was depicted in a negative light. By reacting like this, these 27% of Muslims who harbour such views should be questioned further by the general public and met with strong criticism for it's lack of toleration of people's expression even if they may feel deeply offended by such a depiction of their prophet they saw from Charlie Hebdo.
I definitely agree that the drawing up of the borders approximately a century ago after the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI was poorly done by the British and French empires who began occupying these lands for a few years before they became independent states.
We'll take Syria and Iraq for example as they're two countries who have been severely affected by the emergence of ISIS and have a long history of sectarian violence and internal political issues. Syria was under French rule until its independence in 1944 and Iraq was under British rule until its independence in 1932. Of course the state of 'Syria' and 'Iraq' came about through the Sykes-Picot agreement which I've mentioned earlier in this thread as well showed no regard or concern of demographic differences, culture and values for example. ISIS has recently claimed that the borders of Syria and Iraq as we've known them for the past century ago no longer exist and openly acknowledge their grievances toward the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916. As a result this has potentially further escalated sectarianism violence in the Muslim world even though sectarianism in the Islamic world has been existent since the death of the Prophet Muhammad in the year 632 where Sunnis and Shias debated on who should be the successor of the Prophet.
Toneing down the rhetoric and starting to engage in dialogue is the one thing that both hard-nosed left wingers and hard-nosed right wingers are not in interested in doing despite polarising opinions on this issue. One side is so insistent in blaming everything on Western intervention and occupation and this supposed Zionist conspiracy which has no weight whatsoever but yes western intervention is partially the reason for these problems but conveniently these same people don't like talking about Islamic sectarian violence, the actual ideas and belief systems of Islam itself and of course the associated ideologies of Islamism and Wahhabism which ISIS is trying to implement in the areas it controls in Syria, Iraq and a very small tinge of Libya. On the other hand, we have this other side who believes that the West has made no mistakes for its past actions in the Middle East.
All issues considered by both sides need to be explored from western intervention to Islamic sectarianism to the doctrine and teachings of Islam and Wahhabist and Salafist theory and more specifically the understanding and origins of the group that we know as ISIS today which was born from its foundation in 1999 by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
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Last edited by Jezza on Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jezza
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In other news relating to ISIS they recently posted a video of destroying ancient artefacts dating back from the Assyrian and Akkadian empires (the indigenous people of Iraq) in a museum in Mosul in which it is claimed that these artefacts are 3500 years old.
So ISIS is now not only persecuting Assyrian Christians but now they're trying to wipe out and erase their history from the city of Mosul. It's something that almost resembles something out of Nazi Germany in terms of the ethnic cleansing that is occurring in this part of the world.
| Quote: | Islamic State militants ransacked Mosul’s central museum, destroying priceless artefacts that are thousands of years old, in the group’s latest rampage which threatens to upend millennia of coexistence in the Middle East.
The destruction of statues and artefacts that date from the Assyrian and Akkadian empires, revealed in a video published by Isis on Thursday, drew ire from the international community and condemnation by activists and minorities that have been attacked by the group.
“The birthplace of human civilisation … is being destroyed”, said Kino Gabriel, one of the leaders of the Syriac Military Council – a Christian militia – in a telephone interview with the Guardian from Hassakeh in north-eastern Syria. The destruction took place in Mosul, the Iraqi city that has been under the control of Isis since June when jihadi fighters advanced rapidly across the country’s north.
“In front of something like this, we are speechless,” said Gabriel. “Murder of people and destruction is not enough, so even our civilisation and the culture of our people is being destroyed.”
The five-minute video, which was released by the “press office of the province of Nineveh [the region around Mosul]”, begins with a Qur’anic verse on idol worship. An Isis representative then speaks to the camera, condemning Assyrians and Akkadians as polytheists, justifying the destruction of the artefacts and statues. |
The full article below:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/isis-fighters-destroy-ancient-artefacts-mosul-museum-iraq
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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It's very disturbing, isn't it. Reminds me of Orwell's line from 1984:
| Quote: | | He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past. |
These barbarians would destroy anything and anyone that isn't compatible with their narrow ideology.
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Jezza
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A strong quote by Orwell but very true in these current circumstances as we see with ISIS for example.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | It's very disturbing, isn't it. Reminds me of Orwell's line from 1984:
| Quote: | | He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past. |
These barbarians would destroy anything and anyone that isn't compatible with their narrow ideology. |
It's pretty standard practice with absolutist sects, that stuff. Nazis did it with "degenerate" art, the Khmer Rouge with"year zero", the Taliban with the Buddhas of Bamiyan, hell, even the French revolutionaries did it and the Cromwellian puritans. You must express your inner rigidity and paranoia by exterminating all alternative cultural symbols, usually because your own are so barren.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Whatever you say, like a sacrificial offering to assuage the British entertainment industry's collective guilt and shame for turning a blind eye to or condoning such behaviour on a widespread basis for the past half-century. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Jezza wrote: | In other news relating to ISIS they recently posted a video of destroying ancient artefacts dating back from the Assyrian and Akkadian empires (the indigenous people of Iraq) in a museum in Mosul in which it is claimed that these artefacts are 3500 years old.
So ISIS is now not only persecuting Assyrian Christians but now they're trying to wipe out and erase their history from the city of Mosul. It's something that almost resembles something out of Nazi Germany in terms of the ethnic cleansing that is occurring in this part of the world. |
| Quote: | | Islamic State militants ransacked Mosul’s central museum, destroying priceless artefacts that are thousands of years old, in the group’s latest rampage which threatens to upend millennia of coexistence in the Middle East. |
Yes I agree!
The looting of treasures from the dawn of civilization (by Daesh fanatics) was a crime that can never be undone.
It's true a few statues were destroyed but it is barely a drop in the ocean when compared to the looting that happened in 2003, under the very noses of the US Army (who did little or nothing to stop it).
| Quote: |
Heartbroken Over History
Scholars around the world warned the Pentagon of the museum's significance. Now, they are angry and heartbroken.
"I thought we made the case enough with the military that the museum was going to be the No.1 protected site in Iraq," said McGuire Gibson, an archeologist at the University of Chicago. "And I had been part of a group that had worked up a series of locations for over 5,000 sites."
Gibson said the losses go beyond the Iraq National Museum's own holdings to include artifacts brought in from other parts of the country. Some Iraqi curators believed the artifacts would be safest in Baghdad.
"The fact there … were soldiers about 100 yards away while the looting was taking place for two days was shocking and was just indescribable and maddening," said Gibson, who is president of the American Association for Research in Baghdad and the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute.
The reverberations are worldwide. Three members of a White House cultural committee resigned Thursday out of disappointment that the United States failed to protect Iraq's historical treasures.
And Irving Finkle, a curator with the British museum, said he was "devastated."
"It was like being hit in the stomach with one of those iron bars. I could not believe in this day and age, such a thing would happen," he said.
Gus Van Beek, curator of old world archeology at the Smithsonian Institution of Washington, said he nearly cried.
"My goodness, we have nothing compared to what they have," he said. "They have huge text — huge pictures and stone of battles that were fought. They have gold artifacts, silver artifacts, beautiful daggers and other aspects of warfare. And jewelry — jewels abounded."
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=128469
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| Jezza wrote: | | So ISIS is now not only persecuting Assyrian Christians but now they're trying to wipe out and erase their history from the city of Mosul. |
Before you start ramping up the rhetoric (again) you should get your facts straight!
Those statues (and the Assyrian Empire) predate Christianity by many thousands of years!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria
| Jezza wrote: |
In terms of the Charlie Hebdo shootings in France I find the figures that more than a quarter of British Muslims sympathise with such actions as concerning. It demonstrates the ultra-conservative nature of the Islamic religion if it believes that such actions are somewhat justified or are met with sympathy all because their prophet was depicted in a negative light. By reacting like this, these 27% of Muslims who harbour such views should be questioned further by the general public and met with strong criticism for it's lack of toleration of people's expression even if they may feel deeply offended by such a depiction of their prophet they saw from Charlie Hebdo. |
In a negative light???
The mere depiction of the Profit is what they are angry about and I don't blame them!
I remember not to long ago when a certain western artwork sparked similar feelings of anger and death threats!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/18/us-france-art-idUSTRE73H4JR20110418
"Several people have called saying, 'If you open, you're dead,'" one museum worker told Reuters. "We're nervous and we have asked for protection from the police."
On Saturday, the museum was forced to close after a demonstration against the artist's work drew some 800 protesters . The bishop of Avignon had earlier demanded that the museum remove the controversial photograph.
Most recently, several of Serrano's works were vandalized
in 2007 during an exhibit at a Swedish art gallery.
Your a bright young man Jezza.
You'd be even brighter if you opened both your mind and your eyes before you open your mouth! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Gees why the aggressive comments?!
Can't we all just agree that destroying ANY ancient and not so ancient artefacts of history is a crime against all humanity? Wether you like that particular art form or not.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Yeah, I tend to agree. 3, I'm not sure what's controversial about what Jezza said. American negligence certainly played a large role in that other story; but considering that American negligence more or less directly caused the current situation in Iraq, we're kind of dealing with the same phenomenon here anyway. That doesn't in any way mitigate ISIS's responsibility or make their motivation and actions any less disturbing.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Agree, Jezza's a quality poster on the board, and the equation of a mere depiction of the Prophet with an extravagantly provocative artwork called "piss Christ" showing a crucified Jesus floating in human urine actually makes the poster's point against him. The intrinsic restraint and lack of physical actual reaction by Christian groups under those conditions highlights well the relative benignity of Christian "extremists" in our society vs their murderous "Islamist" counterparts. These simply are not the same thing.
Keep going Jezza, when you're provoking the apologists to false analogies you're probably onto something.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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When you say "benignity" I'm guessing your channeling Don King
"Sure there have been some deaths (in boxing) but none of them serious!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.
March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.
May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at a church in Wichita, Kansas.
Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping~
According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers. Attempted murders in the U.S. included: yadda yadda yadda!
There is nothing in the bible that prohibits a piece of art like Piss Christ being made and exhibited so of course the reaction was (by any measure) more subdued than Charlie Hebdo repeatedly mocking the Prophet.
As I said in a previous post, depicting Mohammad is expressly forbidden in the Koran because Mohammad did not want a "cult of personality" to grow around his teachings!
France and Charlie Hebdo both have a long history of oppressing and mocking the Islamic faith so of course they see things differently to way we view a blasphemous (in some minds) image like Piss Christ!
Piss Christ is a mute point now,
When New York artist Andres Serrano plunged a plastic crucifix into a glass of his own urine and photographed it in 1987 under the title Piss Christ, he said he was making a statement on the misuse of religion.
Piss Christ was attacked and severly damaged with a hammer (in Melbourne) and destroyed beyond repair in 2011 by Christian protesters while on display during the Je crois aux miracles(I believe in miracles) exhibition at the Collection Lambert, a contemporary art museum in Avignon, France. Serrano's photo The Church was similarly vandalized in the attack.
Tolerance (on both sides) is what's needed, not more scare/hate mongering! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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This should be in the "what pisses me off thread" but it flows from my previous post.
It really annoys me that our Prime Minister repeatedly refers to DAESH as a "death cult"!
To me a bunch of so called religious nutters sitting around worshiping a tried and convicted criminal and (symbolically) eating the body and drinking his blood is a bona-fida "Death Cult!"
This is the very thing Mohammad was trying to avoid when placed the ban on using his image for religious (or any other) ends!
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Gees who's getting your wrath next?
Really, you need to degenerate Christians like that?
There is no comparison between modern day Christians and modern day ISIS
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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