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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Bogan triplets?
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| John Wren wrote: | | partypie wrote: | | i wish more people performed randomly thoughtful acts. The world would be a much better place. pretty dreary world where people are questioning their own motives for doing something for others. You obviously felt some sort of reward so you did it again. |
not so much questioning my own motives because i do a lot of other random things that might help someone or brighten their day; it just made me think about altruism and whether there is such a thing. i remember having a philosophical discussion about this with a teacher back in year 12 and the contention was that no act was truly alturistic. |
I reckon many parents, having put their kids first, would disagree.
I agree that if you argue that people who habitually do good deeds (for want of a better term) do it because they get the reward in terms of feeling good about themselves. Therefore, they are actually doing the deed to get the feeling, not to help the other person.
Would these definitions agree with your understanding?
| Quote: | noun
1.
the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism ).
2.
Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator. |
I reckon there's probably plenty of examples of truly altruistic actions and at least as many that you could pull apart for the motivation.
eg. If a Salvo comes up to me and asks me for a donation, I give them some money. I figure they do a really good job and I can afford it, so why not. I don't get a warm afterglow afterward, nor do I begrudge having given the money.
When I used to smoke I was frequently pulled up by vagrants wanting to bot a smoke. Depending on my mood, more often than not I'd oblige and give them one. Did I have some overwhelming desire to help? Nope. Did I actually give a shit? Nope. Did I feel all warm inside after? Nope. Just did it and moved on.
Where does that kind of behaviour fit?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | Did I have some overwhelming desire to help? Nope. Did I actually give a shit? Nope. Did I feel all warm inside after? Nope. Just did it and moved on.
Where does that kind of behaviour fit? |
In HR  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Morrigu wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Did I have some overwhelming desire to help? Nope. Did I actually give a shit? Nope. Did I feel all warm inside after? Nope. Just did it and moved on.
Where does that kind of behaviour fit? |
In HR |
 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | partypie wrote: | | i wish more people performed randomly thoughtful acts. The world would be a much better place. pretty dreary world where people are questioning their own motives for doing something for others. You obviously felt some sort of reward so you did it again. |
not so much questioning my own motives because i do a lot of other random things that might help someone or brighten their day; it just made me think about altruism and whether there is such a thing. i remember having a philosophical discussion about this with a teacher back in year 12 and the contention was that no act was truly alturistic. |
I reckon many parents, having put their kids first, would disagree.
I agree that if you argue that people who habitually do good deeds (for want of a better term) do it because they get the reward in terms of feeling good about themselves. Therefore, they are actually doing the deed to get the feeling, not to help the other person.
Would these definitions agree with your understanding?
| Quote: | noun
1.
the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism ).
2.
Animal Behavior. behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator. |
I reckon there's probably plenty of examples of truly altruistic actions and at least as many that you could pull apart for the motivation.
eg. If a Salvo comes up to me and asks me for a donation, I give them some money. I figure they do a really good job and I can afford it, so why not. I don't get a warm afterglow afterward, nor do I begrudge having given the money.
When I used to smoke I was frequently pulled up by vagrants wanting to bot a smoke. Depending on my mood, more often than not I'd oblige and give them one. Did I have some overwhelming desire to help? Nope. Did I actually give a shit? Nope. Did I feel all warm inside after? Nope. Just did it and moved on.
Where does that kind of behaviour fit? |
It's interesting that the term has varying definitions. I think the generally-understood one is that an altruistic act is something you do to benefit someone else that you get no personal gain from.
Your example of giving people cigarettes is interesting, but it's also an example of an extremely low-stakes decision, kind of on par with holding the door open for someone. You have nothing significant to lose or gain from it, really; hence why you sometimes do it and sometimes don't. You don't really care either way.
But even so, I don't believe anyone does something for no reason. What's running through your mind in the seconds leading up to reaching into the pack? Is there even the briefest weighing of options (e.g. "at least s/he'll leave me alone if I say yes"), or do you think about it more as an automatic act, like touching your Myki on at the train station?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| David wrote: | We do nice things for others for many different reasons (and combinations of reasons), but I don't believe it's ever truly altruistic. Just some possible motivations are avoidance of guilt (if I give this $100 to the tsunami fund now I won't feel guilty that I haven't contributed anything), or a way to look good to others (comspicuous charity), obligation (if I don't do this, who will?), or a way of boosting our self-esteem (I'm a good person because I did this), just the satisfaction of seeing someone smile at you (the key word being 'satisfaction'). At the end of the day, it's all about you and what (you think) will make you happy, which is pretty much the only reason any of us do anything.
But there's nothing wrong with that, I should add. The world needs more people who get their kicks off helping others and being kind and empathetic. It'll make the world a better place for everyone, including yourself! |
I know we disagree on a lot of things David especially regarding politics and topics like ISIS but in this case I completely agree with you on your thoughts on altruism and whether it truly exists.
I think deep down we're all egoists whether you like it or not but egoists can do altruistic things though and it's not necessarily a bad thing to be an egoist either even though it comes across as selfish and self-centred initially. For example, if I want to donate money to a worthy charity or volunteer my services at a retirement village to help the elderly then I may be doing that more on the basis of not only helping others but also feeling better about myself that I'm contributing positively to making the world a better place. It would be a great feeling to help others who are disadvantaged than you which in turn would make you feel better and have a higher regard for yourself.
Sure altruism can exist through acts of kindness to satisfy our selfist tendencies or desires but I don't think true altruism exists but a lot of people will argue otherwise of course. For example, if I want to help my child I'm doing it on the basis of satisfying my selfist desires and needs because if my child is being well-cared and being brought up in a safe and reliable home environment then I in turn will feel better about myself and more secure and safe as an individual for providing for my child.
Overall we gain something by helping others so if you do something altruistic you will of course feel better about yourself and satisfy your egoist tendencies and desires without possibly realising it most of the time.
By the way it's only something I've thought about recently so by no means am I an expert on this topic of altruism which the likes of Dawkins and evolutionary biologists like him have studied in far more depth and detail than anyone else in the world has.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| swoop42 wrote: | | Bogan triplets? |
gold!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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