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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:46 pm
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pietillidie wrote:
^Mate, sorry, but invoking the Ottoman Empire is sheer gold Laughing


I feel the same way about bringing up the 1920s British Empire as justification for horrific acts of terrorism and violence. My point isn't that the Ottomans are to blame, my point is if you're going to bring up 30 years of external meddling as reason, excuse or justification for Islamic violence then why NOT bring up centuries of occupation from an Empire that survived until 1918?

You're happy to see that the Ottomans of 1918 are not to blame, but are happy to blame the British Empire of 1920, or the US Hegemony from 1980 but not Saddam's brutal dictatorship?

You and your ilk are blinkered haters of the USA and UK. Self hating arrogant Anglos who want their ancestors to be equally powerful and full of blame for the actions of angry Arab Muslims who probably couldn't tell you what the League of Nations was.

*Also don't take the 'you' personally, I mean it as an encompassing not a direct term*

EDIT : A great article linking the Ottoman's decision to join the Central Powers to the eventual break up of the Middle East.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/the-wrong-horse-how-the-ottoman-delusions-of-1914-shaped-the-modern-middle-east#page1
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:00 am
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Jezza wrote:
I don't believe the term Islamophobia is even a valid term to start off with. A phobia suggests an 'irrational fear' of something and is associated with a mental illness but I don't think it's irrational to fear an ideology that is oppressive, backward and it's treatment of people is despicable and barbaric.

Jezza, check out the psych research in the field in cognitive biology looking at racism; you'll find there is plenty of experimental work showing it is indeed sub-rational.

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:26 am
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Wokko wrote:
pietillidie wrote:
^Mate, sorry, but invoking the Ottoman Empire is sheer gold Laughing


I feel the same way about bringing up the 1920s British Empire as justification for horrific acts of terrorism and violence. My point isn't that the Ottomans are to blame, my point is if you're going to bring up 30 years of external meddling as reason, excuse or justification for Islamic violence then why NOT bring up centuries of occupation from an Empire that survived until 1918?

You're happy to see that the Ottomans of 1918 are not to blame, but are happy to blame the British Empire of 1920, or the US Hegemony from 1980 but not Saddam's brutal dictatorship?

You and your ilk are blinkered haters of the USA and UK. Self hating arrogant Anglos who want their ancestors to be equally powerful and full of blame for the actions of angry Arab Muslims who probably couldn't tell you what the League of Nations was.

*Also don't take the 'you' personally, I mean it as an encompassing not a direct term*

EDIT : A great article linking the Ottoman's decision to join the Central Powers to the eventual break up of the Middle East.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/the-wrong-horse-how-the-ottoman-delusions-of-1914-shaped-the-modern-middle-east#page1

Get a grip, Wokko. Are you drinking? Blame the Ottomans too if it makes you feel all warm about yourself lol. Who cares?

And do you still, at your age, identify that strongly with "races" and "nations" that it excites you so much? If so, I seriously pity you. That's why sport was invented; it's a sort of ironic wink and nod to that bit of Neanderthal in us all. Get out there with the green and gold on or drape yourself in stars and stripes and go wild with collective hysteria!

Anglo-America is still, now, currently interfering as we speak and hasn't stopped interfering post-Ottoman. Australia, a national entity which most of us on this forum are associated with right now, is at this very moment tagging along. Trillions of dollars have been spent on this endeavour, the economic fallout of which is still partly with us today. The realm of actual intervention, interference and engagement no longer lies with the Ottomans any more than it does with Homo erectus! This is a single, unbroken story that Anglo-America, in particular, is waste deep in, regardless of whether that offends your sense of association with those entities or not.

And don't hide behind complexity; anyone with wafer of grey matter knows destructive scumbags can be found everywhere, and usually more so in the midst of less stable environments. But if you interfere and you stoop to their level, particularly from a position of much greater stability and facility, you bear the moral consequences. You take risks with other people's lives, you bear the moral consequences. You profiteer from other people's resources, you bear the moral consequences. You spend taxpayer money for negative return, you bear the moral consequences.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:22 am
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David wrote:


But you forget to mention the context behind 9/11 (not justification, of course, but context): America's crippling sanctions on Iraq in the late '90s, which Wokko's ideological soulmate Ron Paul (jks!) has spoken out against; the gulf war; intervention in Iran; and any other number of incursions into the affairs of Middle Eastern Muslim countries. Modern history didn't begin in 2001.


It did not begin, but it changed course.

Tony Blair is not very fashionable nowadays, but he is right in that 9/11 showed that there no obvious limit to the deliberate targeting of civilians for mass-murder by Muslim extremists. It showed that if they can get their hands on any kind of mass destruction, then these will be released into our cities, with the primary objective of killing civilians ; that is, killing civilians as an end in itself. It is a genocidal impulse of a kind that we saw in Bosnia, in Armenia, in Poland. It hasn't happened yet, thanks to our security services, but the impulse and the intention was made clear that day.

The Iraq Sanctions were UN sanctions, and the first Gulf war as a UN-sanctioned war. You can blame America, but blaming Saddam is more rational.

The Shah of Iran begged the Carter Administration to support him in recovering his throne after 1979 - and the Americans refused, though they did allow him to live in the US. That was principally what angered the politico-theocrats, who wanted him extradited from the US to be hanged. I don't think there's much evidence that they cared about the overthrow of Mossadeq.

Nope, in the end, I think this comes down to Israel, and the use of America as an "other" by some of the more poisonous and reactionary regimes in the world, and their frustrated peoples.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:36 am
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pietillidie wrote:

On what basis do you feel it reasonable judgement to dismiss hundreds of thousands of Iraq War dead and millions of refugees on the one hand, and ignore the utter cesspit of US poverty, conservative war to prevent healthcare, and, say, gun crime on the other? Or to count in X's atrocities and justify Y's atrocities?

And on what basis do you punish a collective of quite diverse peoples for the actions of sub-groups within their midst on the basis of this term "nation"? Do you hang the whole lot for the acts of the most deranged war criminals?


^ I don't think I've ever dismissed them at all, and I've always argued that the 2nd Iraq war was a mistake. We've had that contest before, and I feel that it was a terrible error partly caused by a certain moral derangement after the atrocity of 9/11, and the worst US President in its history. I also note, again, that civilian casualities were mostly killed by Islamists and sectarians and not Western troops, many of whom were killed and maimed trying to keep the peace.

On US Society, well, I hold no great candle for the Republican Party - I despise its gun culture (sorry Wokko), I support Obama's public health reforms. but unemployment there is ca 5% compared to France at 12%. It's not a simple world.

In the end, the US is often blundering, but it is the indispensible democracy. It has done the decisive strategic dirty work against Fascism, Communism, and Islamism when we needed it. Many / most of the countries that are free and properous today (Australia included) would not be, if the US's interests were not those of the democracies.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:45 am
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David wrote:
think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general.


Well they could always get the **** out of the west, and stay in their oppressed little heaven! Just tell me one thing about their lifestyle compared to ours that's a positive?


Who are we talking about here, Muslim Australians or people with anti-Western sentiments living in the Middle East? I was referring to the latter.

One presumes that people who actually move here would generally hold a slightly more positive view of Western societies.


You mean like the ^&*^*% who was hopefully really killed this week, the one from oz getting all the kids all enthused to go get themselves killed for a war in the oppressed land that their parents left for "a better life?"

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Jezza Taurus

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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:09 pm
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pietillidie wrote:
Jezza wrote:
I don't believe the term Islamophobia is even a valid term to start off with. A phobia suggests an 'irrational fear' of something and is associated with a mental illness but I don't think it's irrational to fear an ideology that is oppressive, backward and it's treatment of people is despicable and barbaric.

Jezza, check out the psych research in the field in cognitive biology looking at racism; you'll find there is plenty of experimental work showing it is indeed sub-rational.

If you're saying the term "Islamophobia" is valid and constitutes racism then I have to disagree with you.

Islamophobia is supposedly based on this idea that someone has a fear of Islam or Muslims, however Islam is not a race though it's a religion. That's like me accusing someone who criticises Christianity has having a phobia of Christianity and those who practice it. The term "Islamophobia" makes no sense in this context of racism. If "Islamophobia" is considered a valid term these days then words that don't currently exist such as "Christianphobia" and "Buddhistphobia" should be just as valid and accepted by scholars and the general public.

Most people don't really care about Islam if someone wants to practice it as a religion within the confines of only their life as it is stated under section 116 of the Australian constitution as long as it doesn't impinge on others or is used as a way to govern us nationally, but I don't blame those who have valid concerns about the ideology of Islamism which has emerged since the Iranian revolution of 1979 and is completely contradictory to the typical Western way of life of secularism.

However the problem with such a term like "Islamophobia" is it hinders reasonable and thorough discussion on the religion of Islam and the ideology of Islamism. If anyone dares to question the religion or the ideology they're automatically branded "Islamophobes" and racist and this is what is may be causing the growing alienation between the Muslim communities in Western countries and other people who live within these Western countries.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:26 pm
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PTID's point, I think, is that prejudice against "Islam" is simply a cover for subconscious racial prejudice. While there's probably at least some truth to that, I suspect a lot of anti-Islamic prejudice is not really so sub-rational.

My view is that it's much more often a form of xenophobia than it is an intellectual rejection of a religious faith (as some of the new atheists might claim); on the other hand, I would also point out that xenophobia is not racist per se (though still, it must be stressed, a dangerous and unpleasant phenomenon in its own right). Suffice it to say PTID and I have different definitions of racism. Wink

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:44 pm
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Jezza wrote:
pietillidie wrote:
Jezza wrote:
I don't believe the term Islamophobia is even a valid term to start off with. A phobia suggests an 'irrational fear' of something and is associated with a mental illness but I don't think it's irrational to fear an ideology that is oppressive, backward and it's treatment of people is despicable and barbaric.

Jezza, check out the psych research in the field in cognitive biology looking at racism; you'll find there is plenty of experimental work showing it is indeed sub-rational.

If you're saying the term "Islamophobia" is valid and constitutes racism then I have to disagree with you.

Islamophobia is supposedly based on this idea that someone has a fear of Islam or Muslims, however Islam is not a race though it's a religion. That's like me accusing someone who criticises Christianity has having a phobia of Christianity and those who practice it. The term "Islamophobia" makes no sense in this context of racism. If "Islamophobia" is considered a valid term these days then words that don't currently exist such as "Christianphobia" and "Buddhistphobia" should be just as valid and accepted by scholars and the general public.

First, the conflation of race and religion is well explained in the race research literature and has been for decades. Have you wondered why we even use the term "race" when "races" don't exist, either? Because it too doesn't matter.

What is being tested here is not a definition; researchers are testing people's implicit reactions to things like faces and names against their own self reported definitions.

In other words, what matters in the experimental science is not whether you like a definition or not, but rather if a subject holds it to be true. "Phobias" and prejudices of all kinds are tested this way, including no doubt "Christianophobia".

So don't be distracted by the semantics. Fear reactions to certain concepts or phenomena are very easy to test, and they exist at a scientific level regardless of whether you like the construction ~ophobia or not.

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:50 pm
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David wrote:
PTID's point, I think, is that prejudice against "Islam" is simply a cover for subconscious racial prejudice. While there's probably at least some truth to that, I suspect a lot of anti-Islamic prejudice is not really so sub-rational.

My view is that it's much more often a form of xenophobia than it is an intellectual rejection of a religious faith (as some of the new atheists might claim); on the other hand, I would also point out that xenophobia is not racist per se (though still, it must be stressed, a dangerous and unpleasant phenomenon in its own right). Suffice it to say PTID and I have different definitions of racism. Wink

See the commemt above and go read the science and experimental methodologies for yourself. As I've said to you before, those queries are more than amply addressed in the literature itself. Sometimes you do have to actually read the materials concerned rather than speculating on what they may or may not contain Wink

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:24 pm
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Or maybe it's as simple as the fact that western society has been seeing images of atrocities committed by terrorists and fucktards in the name of Islam for over a decade now, so people are starting to automatically associate Islam with bad stuff, even though they might get on fine with their Muslim neighbor.

I think it's been important that politicians of all persuasions have been careful to not continue to make that link by referring to IS by it's initials and as a terrorist organization.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:28 pm
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All?
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:39 pm
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Oh, and regarding the argument about over reacting to the internal issues.....

Quote:
A SENIOR United States congressman has provided chilling new details into the alleged Islamic State terror plot that prompted sudden pre-dawn raids across Australia in September, and increased security levels in the US this week.

Australians awoke to the news on September 18 that hundreds of armed state and federal police officers had raided several properties in Sydney and Brisbane in relation to an imminent terror attack.

It later emerged that a senior IS recruiter in the Middle East had been contacting followers in Australia with a plan to kidnap and publicly behead a member of the public.

Mike Rogers, the chairman of the US House Intelligence Committee, has told FOX News today that 14 Australian IS recruits were “ready to go to Syria” at the time and “further their radicalisation”. But Rogers said the recruits were told to stay in Australia.

Rogers said the note back from IS said: “No, No. What we want you to do, stay in Australia. We want you to randomly kidnap people off the street, behead them, videotape it, send it to us for further propaganda.”


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/us-congressman-reveals-chilling-details-about-depraved-is-plot-in-australia/story-fni0xqrb-1227108300018

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:42 pm
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And he knows this how? Is he privy to special information, or is he just repeating some of the more hysterical claims from the tabloids here?

The Herald Sun, Fox News... I'd rather wait for a more trustworthy source before accepting this as indisputable fact.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:47 pm
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^

typical. Rolling Eyes If it's not from a left wing source it can't be true. Particularly if it presents data I disagree with. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

How bout reading the information then using google to validate,

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