Iraq in ruins

regan is true fullback · Joined: 27 Dec 2002 Location: Granville. nsw

mugwump wrote

Mugwump · Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne

Mugwump · Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne

^ David, we're probably into the definitional phase of the discussion, which is a sign that it's due for the ashtray. I'm with you that an individual's evil may not be absolute, permanent or all-consuming. As i see it, the word can be just shorthand for a given individual's propensity to act wickedly. On universal moral laws, well, yes, unless one is religious, any such would be a human construct. But when nearly every human has certain preferences - for life, liberty, freedom from pain, etc - i think there is enough to build a universal morality upon, as you do with utliitarianism. We may then use that standard to judge (fallibly, since we are finite beings) the character of another human being based on their actions. That judgement may include their degree of wickedness in action.

David · I dare you to try Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda

Fair enough. I guess the only significant point I disagree on there is that I don't think we can 'judge' other people because I don't believe humans have free will (and, therefore, I'm in pretty much permanent "there but for the grace of God" territory). But perhaps that doesn't necessarily contradict your argument.

If it is mere semantics, then it's a semantic issue I'm happy to keep championing because I do think "evil" has dehumanising and anti-scientific connotations. But I understand that you see it as serving a more positive purpose.

think positive · Side By Side Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere

When you say humans don't have free will, exactly what do you mean?

pietillidie · Joined: 07 Jan 2005

Do we have any solid facts on ISIS yet? The Wikipedia entry reads like it's part of the Little Golden Book for Gullible Dummies Series. Mind you, it was still more informative than what Abbott and Shorten have to say on the matter.

Oh, and apparently they're not the only nutters with a/v of psychopathic behaviour. I wonder if these will ever see the light of day so they can contradict the racist notion of "people like us" being somehow "special": http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/opinion/sunday/stop-hiding-images-of-american-torture.html

pietillidie · Joined: 07 Jan 2005

Oh, and let's not forget the oil in all this.

I wonder how much of this article is accurate? (Did someone else post this on Nick's recently?)

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-oil-rules-iraq/

Culprit · Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Port Melbourne

stui magpie · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:49 pm

David · I dare you to try Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda

Yep, totally. The Yazidi Kurds, for instance, who ISIS were slaughtering and trapping on a mountain, are kind of to Islam as Mormons are to Christianity�quite distinct, but (arguably) part of the same broader faith. People need to realise that there are massive differences in Islam, and that conflicts like these are about far more than just "Muslims killing each other".

watt price tully · Joined: 15 May 2007

While I abhor what ISIS is doing (that could be isisis) I'm not too sure this is the best strategy yet for the following reasons:

1. What is the end game here?
2. What is the exit strategy?
3. What will be left after the bombing?
4. Who will be in power?
5. What is Turkey's role in this?
6. How will Turkey react to groups of Kurds being given arms?
7. How do we stop the arms going to those we don't want the arms to go to?
8. If ISIS retreats to Syria what then?

Other questions to be asked include:

* Who is funding ISIS - is it some wealthy individuals in the hierarchy of Saudi Arabia as is mooted? Is it Catarrh? If so why aren't we dealing with them?
* What do we want in Syria - what is the least worst option?
* To what extent does our intervention increase our risk in Australia?

That is why Wilkie & The Greens really did hit the nail on the head here. We need more discussion about our intervention.

Mugwump · Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne

^ they're good questions, WPT, though a decision may have to be made without answers being available. I certainly doubt that Qatar is involved in funding ISIS, at least at a state-sanctioned level. In my experience, Qataris are pretty much bent on becoming a second UAE, and their prime focus for the last 20 years has been on making money. It's hard to see how a chaotic, murderous insurgency raging across the ME would fit with that strategy. The Saudis have their (family) money already and a different strategy, and one can think of strategic reasons why they might back ISIS.

think positive · Side By Side Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere

think positive · Side By Side Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere

David · I dare you to try Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda

I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here�ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships.