 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| think positive wrote: | | Pa Marmo wrote: | | think positive wrote: | He calls himself a Christian. His father was a Muslim, his step father was a Muslim, he went to school in Indonesia, a Muslim country, and he did 1 year in a Muslim school and three in a catholic school. From 89 for 20 years he attended a Christian church in Chicago, the trinity united church of Christ.
Like most people though, Sunday becomes family day when you have a busy life and kids, so they don't go to church as often as they used too. Fair enough. |
You can call yourself whatever you like, doesn't make it so, by their fruits you will know them, Christian my boot. |
You know him well enough to say that? |
By their fruits you WILL know them, he's a murdering, lying, elitist overlord, who is actively seeking to destroy America financially, and I prison it's impoverished masses, you know him well enough to refute it?
_________________
Genesis 1:1 |
|
|
|
 |
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Help! The fairies have stolen Pa Marmo. |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Help! The fairies have stolen Pa Marmo. |
he's being held captive at the Peel.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pa Marmo wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Pa Marmo wrote: | | think positive wrote: | He calls himself a Christian. His father was a Muslim, his step father was a Muslim, he went to school in Indonesia, a Muslim country, and he did 1 year in a Muslim school and three in a catholic school. From 89 for 20 years he attended a Christian church in Chicago, the trinity united church of Christ.
Like most people though, Sunday becomes family day when you have a busy life and kids, so they don't go to church as often as they used too. Fair enough. |
You can call yourself whatever you like, doesn't make it so, by their fruits you will know them, Christian my boot. |
You know him well enough to say that? |
By their fruits you WILL know them, he's a murdering, lying, elitist overlord, who is actively seeking to destroy America financially, and I prison it's impoverished masses, you know him well enough to refute it? |
Let's have a little clear thinking here:
The onus to explain wrests with person making the accusations not on those asking how those accusations were derived.
FFS 
I hope you're being ironic - not even Hillsong would believe that conspiracy sh*t. Either that or you've had a skinfull.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | Help! The fairies have stolen Pa Marmo. |
he's being held captive at the Peel. |
Someone has definitely spiked his drink.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
|
|
|
|
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Former Fairfax employee Mike Carlton sums up the conflict, and the Israeli government's criminal stupidity, perfectly:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/08/28/mike-carlton-gaza-is-israels-vietnam-with-hamas-victorious/
| Quote: | So Hamas wins. No matter how Israel and its friends spin it, the raw fact is that this indefinite ceasefire leaves Hamas unbeaten in Gaza.
Bloodied and battered, yes, with an echelon of its senior military and political leadership killed by Israeli airstrikes. But it is only down, not out. It lives to fight another day, which means that Benjamin Netanyahu and his hard-Right Likud-coalition government have failed, and disastrously so, in their stated aim of ensuring Israels security by a crushing military and economic dominance of the Palestinian people. They rolled the dice. They lost.
This is the nature of asymmetrical warfare. As we saw in Vietnam, one side deploys overwhelming military and technological muscle and the propaganda to go with it to crush its weak and primitive opponent. Entire American infantry and air cavalry divisions, hundreds of thousands of men and machines, were hurled against an enemy that lived in tunnels and moved by stealth and guile. It was B52 bombers and napalm against little guys wearing rubber tyre sandals and driving clapped-out Russian tanks. For years the United States navy and air force bombed the bejesus out of Hanoi and the Ho Chi Minh supply trail down along the Cambodian border with Vietnam. Henry Kissinger strutted his diplomatic magic in Geneva and Paris.
And it failed. Utterly. Voltaire got it right: God is not always on the side of the big battalions. Having beaten their French overlords, North Vietnams political and military leadership ratcheted the theory up a couple of notches. They recognised that their regular northern army and their subordinate southern Viet Cong cadres could never defeat the United States in the field. But they knew they didnt need to. No matter what their casualties, no matter how many thousands of their young men they committed to certain death, all they had to do was to still be standing when the Americans lost the will to fight and the shooting stopped. And they were.
So is Hamas. As its spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said on Tuesday: Hamas is grateful to the people of Gaza who sacrificed their homes, children and money. We announce the victory today after achieving our goals. Netanyahu has failed to force Gaza to surrender. Yes, we defeated them by our standing and our resistance.
The figures are horrifying. Agence France Press estimated that more than 2000 Palestinians were killed in seven weeks of war, including 493 children. Some 10,000 people were injured, 3100 of them children, of whom around 1000 will suffer some permanent disability. And about 475,000 people have been left homeless.
By contrast, Israels ambulance service counted just five civilian deaths and 37 injuries only one critical from Hamas rockets and mortars over the 50 days. Technology again; Israels Iron Dome missile defence worked brilliantly.
But to what end? American historian Barbara Tuchman nailed what she called the march of folly: the wooden-headed (her words) pursuit by nations of policies catastrophically against their own interests. Her examples included the Spanish King Philip IIs dispatch of the Armada against Elizabethan England, George IIIs attempt to crush the rebellious 13 American colonies and, yes, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon in Vietnam.
To which illustrious roll we can now add the name Netanyahu. His reckless folly has ensured that Hamas and Islamic Jihad now have an abundant source of recruits for their next generation of fighters. They will be those who survived this latest war, those children who saw their parents or their brothers and sisters blown to pieces and their homes, schools, and entire neighbourhoods obliterated. And they will rise again. The entire history of this benighted land tells us there is nothing more certain. No Israeli now alive will know peace. Hamas can resume the strategy and tactics of terror at any time it chooses.
None of this is even vaguely understood by the powerful and sophisticated Likud lobby in Australia. The faintest criticism of Israel is always met with concerted howls of anti-Semitism! It is a facile libel flung about by the comfortable kaffeeklatsch of Sydney and Melbourne, well-upholstered burghers who have never actually experienced a flicker of anti-Semitism in their gilded lives, let alone the Gestapo knock at midnight or even a rocket landing down the street. In doing so, they demean the memory of those who truly knew what it meant: the dead of Auschwitz.
The final word can be left to 327 Jewish survivors and descendants of victims of the Nazi genocide who signed an open letter to The New York Times this week:
We unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine.
We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.
We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia
Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Israels wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. Never again must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!
But then, theyre probably anti-Semitic. |
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
[/quote]
Don't be naive David. Carlton is merely spitting chips not because of his opinions because he foolishly abused a blogger responding to his post.
Carlton drapes himself in the memory of the holocaust to use for political pointscoring. He's a pompous git that thought he could abuse others with impunity. Got caught, got sacked.
Had he penned his original article minus the abuse of the poster on fairfax then he would still be an employee at Fairfax. He had to be dragging kicking & screaming to make an attempt of an apology.
Now as for the text, some fair pints raised there. Although there are no real winners here least of all the civilians who were used & continue to be used as pawns by Hamas. When you store & fire weapons from Mosques, schools & hospitals & know there will be pretty swift retaliation then that level of criminal behaviour needs to be mentioned.
Hamas has also lost out badly. In fact nothing has been agreed to that wasn't on the table many moths ago & they chose to walk out time after time.
I believe you claimed that Hamas wasn't responsible for the murder of three Israeli teenage jewish boys when this thread commenced which marked a trigger for this round of conflict. Hamas of course was responsible further Israel uncovered a number of cells & weapons from Hamas in the West Bank for a 3rd intifada that was thwarted by Shin Bet. Israel a while ago now have tipped off Abbas who is seething about this.
Hamas has lost a lot of military commanders & Israel has tested out it's missile defence system which was over 92% effective, Israel is more aware of tunnel technology & location of tunnels (which it will need to defend itself against the Party of god that is Hezbollah).
I don't think there were any winners except Al Sisi of Egypt & don't call me a sissy either.
Don't confuse Carlton wanting to get a rise from those he believes was responsible for his sacking with a good article. Just because it's on Crikey doesn't axiomatically mean it's a good article. Carlton mixes his desire to seek revenge so to speak with clarity of the issues. Draping himself in the memory of the holocaust is simply a cynical device on his part.
Then again Carlton has always been a cynical bastard.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I don't much care for ad hominem attacks, WPT, particularly in this case where Carlton is already a respected and well-regarded journalist. This article has nothing to do with Fairfax's disgraceful and cowardly decision to sack him. It's a critical analysis of one of the world's most important contemporary military conflicts. Carlton clearly cares deeply about this conflict and has done for years. It's natural that he'd want to write about it.
The fact that Israelis have stopped murdering Gazans doesn't mean he or anyone else should stop talking about this.
(By the way, I never claimed that Hamas wasn't responsible. How could I? There was no way of knowing at the time.)
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | I don't much care for ad hominem attacks, WPT, particularly in this case where Carlton is already a respected and well-regarded journalist. This article has nothing to do with Fairfax's disgraceful and cowardly decision to sack him. It's a critical analysis of one of the world's most important contemporary military conflicts. Carlton clearly cares deeply about this conflict and has done for years. It's natural that he'd want to write about it.
The fact that Israelis have stopped murdering Gazans doesn't mean he or anyone else should stop talking about this.
(By the way, I never claimed that Hamas wasn't responsible. How could I? There was no way of knowing at the time.) |
David, if you can't see what Carlton is doing here (the context here) then I am surprised - whether carlton is a good journalist or not. No one I know or have said here wants to stop debate, that straw man. Next you'll use words like fascist - I am really surprised.
Murder is what Hamas did to about 70 Fatah members it accused without trial of collaborating with Israel.
Firing missiles at missile launching sites with well over 3,500 missiles is not murder David - it is genuine self-defence.
The fact that Hamas deliberately fired its weapons from schools & mosques & UN facilities is a disgrace.
I repeat Carlton is a cynical old bastard even if he is a good writer. He wanted to stick it up those he believes sacked him (that's pretty obvious) - & not acknowledge or minimise his own role in his downfall that is, abusing a blogger.
I repeat further that there were no winners here apart from Al Sisi of Egypt.
Additional:
From Carton quoted in David's response above:
"But it is only down, not out. It lives to fight another day, which means that Benjamin Netanyahu and his hard-Right Likud-coalition government have failed, and disastrously so, in their stated aim of ensuring Israels security by a crushing military and economic dominance of the Palestinian people....
For a respected journalist he is very clumsy with words but he doesn't care:
I can't stand Likud or the right Wing but Netanyahu has never said his stated aim was to crush the Palestinian people: He distinguishes them from Hamas. The deliberate use of clumsy terminology merely serves to undermine his credibility in argument.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
The Palestinian cause is just, but that does not excuse the use of any methods in its pursuit. This particular episode in the conflict was sparked by the abduction and murder of three Israeli teenagers, and by an equally repulsive reprisal against some poor Palestinian kid. It then escalated when Hamas increased its regular firing of rockets indiscriminately into Israel. I do not know whether they are firing those rockets from schools and mosques inside Gaza, however i cannot see why Israel would deliberately target such sites without a military reason. One might argue that it causes terror, but I doubt that this is in Israel's interest.
As long as Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel from any territory it is permitted to control, then Israel's decision to maintain control over (ie effectively illegally annex) the West Bank and the Golan Heights has some logic and justification. Hamas's actions do not make strategic sense, unless one assumes that they as a party have a vested interest in maintaining a state of permanent conflict with Israel. Given their success in overcoming the more moderate factions in Palestine, that may be the case.
The Carlton article seemed to me mostly polemic. Unlike in Vietnam, this is Israel's "home", and they too will fight without regard for the cost. That is very different to the US conscripts of 1968. It's a poor analogy. He is right about the malign influence of Zionist activists in the West and their opportunistic claims of anti-Semitism ; but Hamas can't truly be said to have won a war wherein it lost so many missile sites and had its secret tunnel network so badly disrupted. That seems just propaganda, really.
What Israel has done to the Palestinians over a long period is really impossible for me to defend - but that does not make Hamas the plucky fighter it is represented as in this article.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | | Hamas can't truly be said to have won a war wherein it lost so many missile sites and had its secret tunnel network so badly disrupted. That seems just propaganda, really. |
The point Carlton is making, and I think it's a good one, is that the massacres in Gaza have ensured another generation of extremism in the Palestinian territories. That plays right into the hands of organisations like Hamas. They may have lost the military battle, but they've won the war for hearts and minds in Gaza and, as Carlton says, that is a massive blow to any prospect of peace in the Middle East.
What Netanyahu has done to Gaza is criminal, but what he has done to Israel is also very damaging. He has and will have the blood of many Israelis and Palestinians on his hands.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Hamas can't truly be said to have won a war wherein it lost so many missile sites and had its secret tunnel network so badly disrupted. That seems just propaganda, really. |
The point Carlton is making, and I think it's a good one, is that the massacres in Gaza have ensured another generation of extremism in the Palestinian territories. That plays right into the hands of organisations like Hamas. They may have lost the military battle, but they've won the war for hearts and minds in Gaza and, as Carlton says, that is a massive blow to any prospect of peace in the Middle East.
What Netanyahu has done to Gaza is criminal, but what he has done to Israel is also very damaging. He has and will have the blood of many Israelis and Palestinians on his hands. |
Oh, I think the actions of the last ten years were an extremist factory already. I doubt this will stock the factory much more, and if it adds some, i don't think it represents a victory in any course-altering way.
I agree with your last sentences, though. Israel is getting this badly wrong, in my view. It has to give the Palestinians hope of a just settlement if it wants to defuse this existential threat to itself.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pa Marmo wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Pa Marmo wrote: | | think positive wrote: | He calls himself a Christian. His father was a Muslim, his step father was a Muslim, he went to school in Indonesia, a Muslim country, and he did 1 year in a Muslim school and three in a catholic school. From 89 for 20 years he attended a Christian church in Chicago, the trinity united church of Christ.
Like most people though, Sunday becomes family day when you have a busy life and kids, so they don't go to church as often as they used too. Fair enough. |
You can call yourself whatever you like, doesn't make it so, by their fruits you will know them, Christian my boot. |
You know him well enough to say that? |
By their fruits you WILL know them, he's a murdering, lying, elitist overlord, who is actively seeking to destroy America financially, and I prison it's impoverished masses, you know him well enough to refute it? |
I would like to report this post as it has clearly been posted in the wrong thread and so would respectfully request the mods relocate it to the WTF thread where it clearly belongs!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| You assume that Israel wants peace, or to remove Hamas. They want neither, they want a weak Hamas and certainly don't want a united Palestine. This campaign was a huge win for those who want to maintain status quo tension and conflict. Hamas will get their new recruits and start to grow again, Israel keeps it's bogeyman and prevents Palestinian unity. |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Israel wants to survive & develop in safety.
Hamas is dedicated to it's destruction.
To make a sweeping statement that Israel wants a particular policy of splitting the Palestinians is manifestly absurd given that there are divergent views in Israeli society & in parliament including those who want the end of Israel. To speak of Israel as having one view or a homogenous view is simply a nonsense that fits a predetermined view.
Remember, there are Arabs fighting in the Israeli army, there are Arabs in ministerial positions & diplomats, there are Israeli's who want the end of Israel in Parliament both Jews & Arabs.
To ascribe a supposed monolithic homogeneous view to Israel is necessarily a limited if not a simplistic reading of a complex situation.
Express a divergent view in Gaza & you are murdered.
Gaza will have to be demilitarised one way or another.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
