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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Post subject: What's a civil libertarian? | |
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In a post in one of the Marley Williams threads, WhyPhilWhy responded to WPT's tongue-in-cheek comment about me being a "commie" with the following:
WhyPhilWhy? wrote: | Wrong end of the spectrum - David is actually arguing a libertarian position. |
It seemed strange, because I don't generally identify with libertarian politics at all (although, as with most ideologies, I share a few points of view with them here or there). If you want a more accurate run-down of libertarian politics, ask Wokko—he's probably the closest thing we have on this site to a 'pure' libertarian. Also, the IPA, the think-tank that the modern Liberal Party are close with, could broadly be considered a libertarian group, and the tea party over in the US. Obviously, I don't see eye-to-eye with them on a lot of issues.
Yet, I'd definitely consider myself a civil libertarian (think the ACLU over in the US or Liberty Victoria here). So, what's the difference? Are the two just different denominations of the same church? Is it possible to be a civil libertarian and strongly oppose libertarian ideology, or is there too much overlap?
If there's a clear difference, I think it's this: libertarians seek individual freedom from the state. This means that while they sometimes take a very 'liberal' view on social issues (gay marriage, anti-censorship, drug legalisation), they're heavily against most forms of government interference. Therefore, they tend to side with conservatives in opposing (or support reducing) welfare, taxation, workplace regulations and discrimination law. To some extent, it's Every Man for Himself.
Civil libertarians believe in individual freedom from the state as well, but more importantly they see the commercial sector to be an equally (if not more) oppressive force. So, they're likely to find themselves diametrically opposed to libertarians on issues of workplace law. They also tend to support the concept of social equality, hence their general support for social welfare, progressive taxation and anti-discrimination law. I think it's fair to say that the average civil libertarian belongs to the left, whereas garden-variety libertarianism is increasingly a characteristic of the right.
What do you think? Is this a fair description of each viewpoint? Would you say that you have 'sympathy' for either ideology? _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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There you go. I always thought a civil libertarian was one who wasn't rude. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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A libertarian is one who regards the provision of personal liberty as the paramount aim of civil society.
To a libertarian, personal liberty transcends most or all other aims of social organisation. When thought through thoroughly - I repeat, when thought through thoroughly - this leads directly to an enlightened position on many, perhaps most social issues. Obviously, liberty (or freedom, the two terms mean the same thing) involves the maximum of free choice on the part of the individual. Less obviously, but equally vital, freedom requires that the individual be protected from unwelcome harm so far as possible. This in turn requires a strong, well-run state to (among other things) defend against invasion from abroad; ensure peace and safety from bandits and murderers at home; prevent epidemics of disease; and so on.
To anarchists, the role of the state in defending freedom stops right there, or even before that point. Anarchists are scarce at present, but it has been a popular view in the past and doubtless will be again; it seems to come into and go out of fashion.
Then there are the simple-minded "libertarians" (the IPA provide a perfect example), who (very sensibly) regard the right to own private property as a fundamental part of freedom, but (very stupidly) (a) fail to properly respect the equal right of others to the same thing, and above all (b) fail to recognise that the forceful private appropriation of or destruction of property belonging to the community as a whole is not remotely beneficial to freedom, it is simply unpunished theft. When, for example, you bulldoze a nature reserve in order to extract coal to sell to China, you are simply destroying a present benefit (the nature reserve) and stealing an invested long-term future benefit (the coal) in order to squander both of them on your own private wealth accumulation.
This is the fundamental error in IPA-style libertarian thought: it utterly fails to think through its own rhetoric and consider all the consequences to all of the people. "Freedom", for the IPA and American-style libertarians, largely consists of the freedom of a small minority to rape, plunder, and destroy the property and freedom of other people.
Finally, there are the libertarians who try to think things through properly. These (sadly rather rare) people recognise the essential and eternal truth of the view that liberty is the fundamental goal which, if pursued energetically and intelligently, requires (almost as a by-product) that nearly all other valuable goals will be met also. To be truly free, people must necessarily have decent health, reasonable safety, at least some education, a fair and effective justice system, and nearly all of those other things we strive for. Simply focusing clearly on liberty as the primary, vital social aim, it soon becomes clear that most (all?) other worthwhile aims are also achieved. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives!
Last edited by Tannin on Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Are you free people must have decent health reasonable safety some education a fair and effective justice system and all of those other things we strive for ? |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010 Location: Ponsford End
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Tannin wrote: | A libertarian is one who regards the provision of personal liberty as the paramount aim of civil society.
To a libertarian, personal liberty transcends most or all other aims of social organisation. When thought through thoroughly - I repeat, when thought through thoroughly - this leads directly to an enlightened position on many, perhaps most social issues. Obviously, liberty (or freedom, the two terms mean the same thing) involves the maximum of free choice on the part of the individual. Less obviously, but equally vital, freedom requires that the individual be protected from unwelcome harm so far as possible. This in turn requires a strong, well-run state to (among other things) defend against invasion from abroad; ensure peace and safety from bandits and murderers at home; prevent epidemics of disease; and so on.
To anarchists, the role of the state in defending freedom stops right there, or even before that point. Anarchists are scarce at present, but it has been a popular view in the past and doubtless will be again; it seems to come into and go out of fashion. |
Very-well defined Tannin! I couldn't summarise it better myself. _________________ | 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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I still don't know _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Location: The 18
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Looks like TP is pissed again. _________________ He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Nah sober, the fridge is too far from the couch, I'm just being lazy til the new tv show come on at 9 _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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